OT: computer analogies, science fiction and stuff

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John Doe

What invention would you compare a computer to?

A familiar analogy might be to a car. I would call the computer an
intellectual wheel. Electronic computing has been around for a short
while, historically speaking, and I suppose the wheel took a very
long time to be well understood and mostly appreciated.

I have recently seen most of the movie "I Robot". If I'm not
mistaken, the three laws of robotics were taken from Isaac Asimov's
book series. I and probably lots of others got their vision of
robotics from his books. I think the movie sheds a good light on the
current state of computing. The three laws of robotics are fine, if
implemented correctly. However, the idea of having a foreign/remote
entity control a device, with "daily upgrades", which has power to
control or kill human beings is going to be a very hard sell. It's a
lot like the current personal computer operating system, Code is
hidden from its users. And you imagine a robot programmed the same? I
can't. My guess is that such devices will have to be perfectly
honest, open, and obedient to their owners (the people they accompany
and serve). Anything else would have to be forced upon the people.
 
John Doe said:
What invention would you compare a computer to?

A familiar analogy might be to a car. I would call the computer an
intellectual wheel. Electronic computing has been around for a short
while, historically speaking, and I suppose the wheel took a very
long time to be well understood and mostly appreciated.

I have recently seen most of the movie "I Robot". If I'm not
mistaken, the three laws of robotics were taken from Isaac Asimov's
book series. I and probably lots of others got their vision of
robotics from his books. I think the movie sheds a good light on the
current state of computing. The three laws of robotics are fine, if
implemented correctly. However, the idea of having a foreign/remote
entity control a device, with "daily upgrades", which has power to
control or kill human beings is going to be a very hard sell. It's a
lot like the current personal computer operating system, Code is
hidden from its users. And you imagine a robot programmed the same? I
can't. My guess is that such devices will have to be perfectly
honest, open, and obedient to their owners (the people they accompany
and serve). Anything else would have to be forced upon the people.
Most people are very niave, and go along with what the Elite tell them.
The Elite (priveledged, rich, powerful, Corporate) are the thing to worry
about.
The robots will do what they`re told. Don`t we ??.
 
John said:
What invention would you compare a computer to?

A familiar analogy might be to a car. I would call the computer an
intellectual wheel. Electronic computing has been around for a short
while, historically speaking, and I suppose the wheel took a very
long time to be well understood and mostly appreciated.

I think the Printing Press is a better analogy. That allowed knowledge to
be mass distributed and a computer program is, in many ways, the knowledge
of it's creators mass distributed to users.

The Printing Press visa vie the Internet is probably closer, though,
because a computer can implement in addition to distribute.
I have recently seen most of the movie "I Robot". If I'm not
mistaken, the three laws of robotics were taken from Isaac Asimov's
book series.

So was the basis of the movie as well as the exact title "I, Robot."
I and probably lots of others got their vision of
robotics from his books. I think the movie sheds a good light on the
current state of computing.

Kind of amusing to talk about it describing the current state of computing
when one realizes those short stories were written in the early 40's before
the first practical general purpose digital computer, transistors, and
integrated circuitry existed.

But "positronics" still looks like into the future even today.
The three laws of robotics are fine, if
implemented correctly.

Problems and apparent contradictions from just three simple and seemingly
obvious 'laws' is the basis of many of the short stories. "Little Lost
Robot" is one of the best on that score as are the logic debates between
the prototype Robot who decides an energy converter station is 'god' and
the human "Robo-testers" trying to 'prove' it's not and that humans made
him (they fail, btw).
However, the idea of having a foreign/remote
entity control a device, with "daily upgrades", which has power to
control or kill human beings is going to be a very hard sell. It's a
lot like the current personal computer operating system, Code is
hidden from its users. And you imagine a robot programmed the same? I
can't.

I can't imagine the comparison even being valid. More likely a 'robot
brain' of the kind postulated in the Asimov I Robot series would be a
'framework', much like a human brain might be considered a 'framework' that
knowledge/experience is then poured into, and not 'programmed' in the
conventional sense. Rather than 'programmed', per see, they get knowledge
'pre-loaded' at manufacture. As such there isn't any 'code' that precisely
determines what the robot will do in any specific set of circumstances.
Otherwise half the stories couldn't take place as many of the problems are
not 'coding errors' but logic conundrums with perfectly fine Robots.

For a math project you'd buy a Robot 'pre-loaded' with math expertise like
you'd hire a human who went to college and majored in math and I doubt
you'd mind if he kept up with the latest developments in math theory so why
would you mind if the Robot got an 'update' that did the same?

However, the 'precise' working, what you call 'code', is inherently
'hidden' by the nature of the Robot 'brain', as it is with humans (which is
why the most common recurring character, Susan Calvin, is a
"Robo-psychologist").

The Three Laws, btw, form the core of the 'framework'. A core 'morality',
so to speak, without which the Robot brain doesn't function properly (an
interesting concept in it's own right) and not just 'a good idea'.
My guess is that such devices will have to be perfectly
honest, open, and obedient to their owners (the people they accompany
and serve).

That is, of course, the Second Law: A Robot may not disobey the orders of a
human being, unless such order would conflict with the First Law.

The First Law is that a Robot cannot cause, nor allow, harm to come to a
human being so your 'update problem' is theoretically prevented by their
very nature. You cannot surreptitiously 'instruct' a Robot to do harm via
some pernicious 'update' because it would conflict with the First Law.

For completeness, the Third law is that a Robot must protect itself, unless
doing so would conflict with either the First or Second Laws. You could
order a Robot to self destruct and it would have to comply but it will not,
can not, follow an order to harm a human (or can it? ;) ).
Anything else would have to be forced upon the people.

The I Robot series begins with robots not even allowed on Earth due to
public fear of them.

The series ends with Robots running the whole planet in perfect harmony and
for the unqualified good of mankind (due to the Three Laws, of course)
except things are obviously not perfect and there's serious problems with
the harmony, for some anyway. The crisis of an entire planet controlled by
'defective' robots, and the resolution, is a quite interesting human study.

There are two print collections of the short stories that I know of. One
is, tada, "I, Robot" and the other is "The Rest of the Robots." Science
fiction just doesn't get any better.
 
David Maynard said:
John Doe wrote:
I think the Printing Press is a better analogy. That allowed
knowledge to be mass distributed and a computer program is, in
many ways, the knowledge of it's creators mass distributed to
users. The Printing Press visa vie the Internet is probably
closer, though, because a computer can implement in addition to
distribute.

The printing press and the Internet sound analogous, but a computer
isn't much like a printing press or the Internet.

....
I can't imagine the comparison even being valid.

You also have a difficult time imagining that Microsoft holds
monopoly power over the desktop operating system business. And that
one is crystal clear, already proven in court (a fact most of us
already long understood).

Software publishing is in a bizarre state. Currently, about the only
people who pay for American software and media are Americans, the
rest of the world gets our intellectual property for free. And
there's no way to force them to enforce their own law. Like Richard
Lugar quipped "are we supposed to send our police to their
country?". Seems like that's what George Bush Jr. is trying to do,
but that's another argument. Many countries don't even have
intellectual property law... China, Russia, and Brazil for example.

Microsoft doesn't remotely control computers now, however I won't be
surprised if the time comes. For Microsoft to become more powerful,
it might have to remotely control computers. It certainly appears to
be trying, with Windows Product Activation and Windows Update
authentication. And then there are all of the built-in phone home
devices in Windows XP.

In fact, Windows operating system code is hidden from users, that's
the nature of closed source. Unless the public become sheep, I
guarantee you Microsoft's style will be rejected. Hiding code from
users has no place in a future with very complex machines that can
make life-and-death decisions. Maybe we just stagnate, going nowhere
with high technology. That's certainly the apparent course of the
current administration. We've gone pretty much nowhere space wise
since the shuttle was built during the Ronald Reagan administration,
20 years ago. And they can't even get that right.
 
John said:
The printing press and the Internet sound analogous, but a computer
isn't much like a printing press or the Internet.

It is for precisely the reason I stated, it is a means of distributing the
knowledge of the program's creator just as a printed volume distributes the
knowledge of the writer.

I also pointed out they go further in being able to implement.

You also have a difficult time imagining that Microsoft holds
monopoly power over the desktop operating system business. And that
one is crystal clear, already proven in court (a fact most of us
already long understood).

You repeating falsehoods you invented is just as much a lie now as it was
the first time you falsely said it.


<snip of conspiracy rantings that have nothing to do with Asimov>
 
David Maynard said:
John Doe wrote:
It is for precisely the reason I stated, it is a means of
distributing the knowledge of the program's creator just as a
printed volume distributes the knowledge of the writer.
I also pointed out they go further in being able to implement.

A computer is not a medium. Perhaps your analogy holds some water if
you consider the repetition a computer is capable of. It is capable
of repeating the same task over and over again. But then there's no
need for a user.

We humans have the built-in physical attributes that allow us to get
from here to there and to carry things. The wheel was invented as an
external device which helped to accomplish the same things, and it
grew from there. Our brains allow us to do such things as solve
problems and plan ahead. So we have invented an external device
called a computer that emulates some of what our brains do. And as
happened with the wheel, we know the invention will continue to grow
and be included in more things such as robots.

Comparing the wheel to a computer is a complex analogy, but I
haven't heard anything better.
You repeating falsehoods

Do you agree that Microsoft holds monopoly power over the desktop
operating system market?
 
John said:
A computer is not a medium.

It certainly contains one or more (conventional) mediums with the 'disk
storage medium' being the one most familiar to the typical user but, as
I'll show below, it is also, itself, a 'medium'.
Perhaps your analogy holds some water if
you consider the repetition a computer is capable of. It is capable
of repeating the same task over and over again. But then there's no
need for a user.

Repetition is non essential.

Why you can't grasp the concept that a program is the result of, and
contains, the creator's knowledge and then that expertise is transferred to
the user who uses the program I don't know.

Again, as I said, the computer goes even further in that it implements,
which has the interesting result that the user need not necessarily
understand the knowledge he's using as he would likely need to with a
written text; although not necessarily if he were simply following
instructions, like a 'how to' book, which is, tada, a 'program' with him as
the implementing device. "Do this, turn that, wait 5 seconds, hammer this,
close door, finished."
We humans have the built-in physical attributes that allow us to get
from here to there and to carry things. The wheel was invented as an
external device which helped to accomplish the same things, and it
grew from there.

Certainly, but other than being another means to a similar goal there is
little that a wheel has in common with legs. They don't work the same,
operate on the same principles, or anything else.
Our brains allow us to do such things as solve
problems and plan ahead. So we have invented an external device
called a computer that emulates some of what our brains do. And as
happened with the wheel, we know the invention will continue to grow
and be included in more things such as robots.

Our brain also stores 'information' and so does a book. Humans sing and so
does a guitar. Human's speak and so does a record player. And to extend
your wheel analogy, humans 'travel' and so does a jet. It's a weak analogy,
IMO, because that's what any "tool" does: help do something.

A computer doesn't, in fact, 'emulate' what our brains do any more than a
guitar, jet, or a book does, nor does it "solve problems and plan ahead."
(Which was the point of the I, Robot discussion. A 'Robot' would have to
be, as Dr. Daystrom of Start Trek M5 fame put it, "a whole new approach.").
We tend to project that onto them because they're seemingly 'dynamic'. It
'does something' in a seemingly autonomous manner, plus we like the idea of
it and the 'computer' can be seen while a program is essentially
'invisible', but it's the program's creator that did the 'smarts', the
"solve problems and plan ahead" thinking, and not the 'computer'. The
computer just mechanically followed the program in a deterministic manner
according to the (program) creator's wishes.

If there isn't someone knowledgeable enough to know how to do whatever the
task is, then have it programmed, the computer is a useless pile of junk
just as a blank book would be useless pressed plant fibers (well, maybe
decent toilet paper). And, in that sense, the computer (hardware) is an
implementing 'medium' for the program. I.E. It has no form or function
without it. It's a 'blank medium', an empty book.
Comparing the wheel to a computer is a complex analogy, but I
haven't heard anything better.

If you're going to use a 'wheel' analogy you might as well go to the root
of it, consistent with your 'helper' theme, and simply say "tool" as that's
what a tool is: a man made object that helps perform a task. In that sense
it's 'better' because it's the root definition but that begs the issue of
which 'tool' the computer is most like.

You seem to be concerned with only the physical but my whole point is that
it's the *knowledge* transfer that makes the computer orders of magnitude
more significant than the typical tool and that that's also what made the
printing press so significant, the *knowledge* that it transferred.
Mxsmanic's comment that the comparison is "written language" captures the
same essence of knowledge being the core of it but I think reproductive
distribution by mechanical means is an important aspect as well (perhaps
reserving the future Robotics "whole new approach" for something so
dramatically fundamental as the concept of speaking/writing itself). And
that's why I make the printing press analogy.

Now one could say that the wheel enhanced knowledge transfer too but, as
you point out, there is no storage medium to it (people forget) and it's
not all that dramatically different than without one. The book and computer
have both, however, in spades. Give Socrates a wheel and he may be able to
meet and teach a few more people but put it in print, or a program, and the
number is limitless, spanning the ages. And following on, make a wheel and
you have a wheel, wonderful as it is. Teach a few people how to make wheels
and you have hundreds of wonderful wheels and creative minds making even
better ones but teach an infinite number how to make wheels...

It's the staggering magnitude of the distribution combined with the
empowering effect of knowledge and the synergism of knowledge begetting
knowledge that makes them (printed books and computers) so revolutionary.

With all due apologies to Khan Noonien Singh, "Improve a [simple tool] and
you may double productivity. But improve [knowledge] and you gain a
thousandfold." The reason is readily apparent: wheels do not beget wheels
but knowledge does beget knowledge.

The computer adds a third, implementation. So I see it as an extension of
the 'knowledge enhancement' mechanism rather than a simple physical tool,
e.g. wheel.

Do you agree that Microsoft holds monopoly power over the desktop
operating system market?

I have refused to discuss it with you in the past and continue to do so.
 
David Maynard said:
John Doe wrote:
[A computer] certainly contains one or more (conventional) mediums
with the 'disk storage medium' being the one most familiar to the
typical user

Lots of things contain other things.
Why you can't grasp the concept that a program is the result of,
and contains, the creator's knowledge and then that expertise is
transferred to the user who uses the program I don't know.

Another something you don't know. Fancy that.

What you describe is no different than any engineered device.
Application programming is only one of many parts of a computer.
Certainly, but other than being another means to a similar goal
there is little that a wheel has in common with legs. They don't
work the same, operate on the same principles, or anything else.
Bullshit.

And to extend your wheel analogy, humans 'travel' and so does a
jet.

The aircraft was invented eons after the wheel was invented. You can
guess that someday in its development the computer will morph into
something different, something related but more powerful.

To be clear. When I talk about a computer, I am talking about the
part that interacts with the user, the decision-making part. The
fundamental computer.
It's a weak analogy, IMO, because that's what any "tool" does:

It's somewhat vague because of the broad nature of computing.
A computer doesn't, in fact, 'emulate' what our brains do

Most of us compare the two.
If you're going to use a 'wheel' analogy you might as well go to
the root of it, consistent with your 'helper' theme, and simply
say "tool" as that's what a tool is: a man made object that helps
perform a task.

Yes, a computer is a tool.
In that sense it's 'better' because it's the root
definition but that begs the issue of which 'tool' the computer is
most like.

Which brings us back around to the wheel. It's not perfect, but
there might not be anything closer.
You seem to be concerned with only the physical

Analogies are drawn to something fundamentally different.
the computer orders of magnitude
more significant than the typical tool

As is the wheel.
and that that's also what made the printing press so significant,

The printing press is along the same line in the development of
intellectual tools. It's not analogous.

I would compare the printing press to a club. You could whack lots
of people with it without bloodying your knuckles. Playing.
Mxsmanic's comment that the comparison is "written language"

I disagree, but his was a straightforward answer to my question.
Now one could say that the wheel enhanced knowledge transfer too

One could say that the wheel enhanced weight transfer.

I don't think that analogous objects being in the same category is
even desirable. Analogies are for drawing conclusions about
something based on experience with something else. That's all.

I think most people can recognize the fact that physical things came
before intellectual things (e.g. Neanderthal man). That makes
comparing the computer to an eons old invention acceptable to me.
And it might point to a better comparison, if there is one.
 
Mxsmanic said:
Written language.

I agree...well sort of. As more and more people have computers, the
libraries become less populated. Our local library is not the place of
research it was not long ago. The computer and the connection to the world
is limited only by yourself. It is the ultimate library trip.....a
communications tool and thus compareable to a language. As far as the
hardware is concerned, not a lot has changed as far as function. Sure, we
have seen the computer go from vacuum tubes to transistors and now to
integrated circuitry and storage from paper and magnetic tape to the thumb
drive. Hardware will continue to change, as will the speeds it runs. The
major function as a device of communication and learning will continue on.
Games and recreational uses are but a by-product of the technology. When I
think of just the last 10+ years of our interaction in this and other
newsgroups I think about all the knowledge that has been shared over our
wires.

Ed
 
I agree...well sort of. As more and more people have computers,
the libraries become less populated. Our local library is not the
place of research it was not long ago. The computer and the
connection to the world is limited only by yourself. It is the
ultimate library trip.....a communications tool and thus
compareable to a language.

Communications is only part of a modern personal computer which is
connected to the Internet. A computer is a computer without a modem.
As far as the hardware is concerned,
not a lot has changed as far as function. Sure, we have seen the
computer go from vacuum tubes to transistors and now to integrated
circuitry and storage from paper and magnetic tape to the thumb
drive. Hardware will continue to change, as will the speeds it
runs.

And so will the number of applications and implementations.
The major function as a device of communication

You have teenage female children?
and learning will continue on.

Yup, there are many uses, for learning, teaching, science, art,
entertainment, and communications (using a modem).
Games and recreational uses are but a by-product
of the technology.

But seriously. You have left out the vast majority of uses for a
computer. I can't imagine why anyone would not already know, but all
you have to do is look at software.
When I think of just the last 10+ years of our interaction in this
and other newsgroups I think about all the knowledge that has been
shared over our wires.

The same could be done by WebTV users.



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From: "Ed Medlin" <ed edmedlin.com>
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
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John Doe said:
Communications is only part of a modern personal computer which is
connected to the Internet. A computer is a computer without a modem.

Sure it is. But until they could communicate with each other or remote
terminals, the usefulness of them was extremely restricted to a single
location.
And so will the number of applications and implementations.

That is pretty much a "given" as hardware evolves.

That is half of a sentence you quoted and out of context.
You have teenage female children?


Yup, there are many uses, for learning, teaching, science, art,
entertainment, and communications (using a modem).


But seriously. You have left out the vast majority of uses for a
computer. I can't imagine why anyone would not already know, but all
you have to do is look at software.

Sure, I have a lot of games. I could run games on a console if I wanted.
(also a computer if you want to look at them that way). All I said is that
computer gaming came along as a by-product of the technology. You can bet
that if a computer can do something that there are writers out there that
will make it happen.
The same could be done by WebTV users.
I doubt many WebTV users were posting here 10+ years ago.......:-). Why
would a WebTV user be interested in homebuilt/oc'ing comp ngs anyway? If
they did, I hope they built a PC. Sharing knowledge and ideas is a great
thing. Learning is even greater.

Ed
 
Sure it is. But until they could communicate with each other or
remote terminals, the usefulness of them was extremely restricted
to a single location.

Maybe the Internet is analogous to a wheel (yes, that's a revision).
And maybe the computer is analogous to a factory or a farm or
something (some something).

Anyway. What you're talking about is moving the produce of a
computer. The application of computers has been enhanced by the
Internet.
Why would a WebTV user be interested in homebuilt/oc'ing comp ngs
anyway?

Speaking of overclocking. I'd like to thank those who post here and
hardly ever ask about overclocking. Maybe I take that for granted. I
can easily imagine people mis-thinking this is the group to discuss
overclocking.
 
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