Looking for insight on how most s/w dev jobs are attained

  • Thread starter Thread starter Silverton Mike
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Silverton Mike

I'm hoping some of this newsgroup's participants could give me some
insight on the attaining a s/w engineer job facts.

I'm curious to how much of new job openings are usually obtained via
"who you know." I'm wondering how many of the people attaining new jobs
are doing this via contacts or knowing people in the industry and how
much is just from cold applications from being on the outside.

I just graduated with my B.S. in CS/SE and managed to get some contract
work as a software developer through a long time friend in the field and
the only other employed s/e that I'm aware of from my graduating class
has landed all his contract jobs (and an on-site one) via his brother
who's in the industry. The rest of my former class mates are still
looking for a job.

Until my landing of a job through my friend, I had been applying for
many jobs with absolutely no success nor call backs.

Any and all insight or experience will be new to me and greatly received
and appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael Hughes - Silverton, Oregon
http://wou.ath.cx/Trivia
 
Mike,

First, congratulations on graduation.

The key thing in job hunting is getting in front of the hiring managers.
When a manager advertises a position they may get hundreds of resumes, even
if most are not qualified. What you have to do is get your resume near the
top of the stack. Be persistent in following up. Talk to recruiters and
consulting companies - both local firms and the national firms. Take
contracting jobs for experience and exposure.

I can tell you that, at least where I am at, there may be too many
developers looking for jobs but there are never enough highly qualified
candidates.

Hang in there.

DalePres
MCAD, MCDBA, MCSE
 
Congrats!

The culture of where you live has a lot to do with it. I live in an area
where there is exaclty one metropolis for a few hours in each direction, so
the IT market is pretty small. In that case, it is ALL about who you know.
Once you establish a reputation of sorts, you sort of hear through the
grapevine about openings.

But if you don't have the advantage of already being plugged in, two things
are usually successful: being persistent/making yourself stand out and
using headhunters.

Many will say that headhunters (a.k.a. "recruiters") are no good because
companies don't want to spend the money, but in reality, the cost of weeding
out decent candidates for a company is just about the same price as getting
a headhunter and having them give you pre-screened candidates. So get hooked
in with one or two at the most headhunters. Keep them updated with where you
are submitted. If two headhunters submit you for the same job - you will not
get the job, because the company won't want to deal with the pissing contest
between the headhunters - so beware of that. Also, only work with a
headhunter that will only submit your name/resume to a company after getting
permission from you. Again, this is key in that there are MANY places that
will pretty much drop your resume from an airplane like leaflets over Iraq -
so that way, wherever you get a job, they will be able to make a claim on
it. Headhunters make thier money when you get hired.

And on being persistent - don't be afraid at all to call and keep calling,
but not be a stalker. The key is, you are just a name on a piece of paper
when you start, you need to start building a repoire. For example:

You: "I'm so-and-so, I submitted my resume for the position of xxx and I'm
calling to see if you've had a chance to review it yet?"
Empoyer: "Not yet, we've been wading through a lot of resumes."
You: "I'm very interested in this position, so if you have any questions on
my resume or would like to arrange an interview, please let me know!"
Empoyer: "OK, thanks, we'll let you know."
You: "When should I expect to hear back from you?"
Empoyer: "Well, I'm not sure - we have a lot of resumes to review."
You: "Would you mind if I checked back in a few days, maybe Thursday?"
Empoyer: "Sure, that'd be fine."

....Thursday
You: "Hi! This is So-and-so, just checking in with you - we spoke earlier in
the week about the position of xxx"
Empoyer: "Oh, Hi So.. we're still going through resumes, I'm sorry - we'll
let you know when we decide something."
You: "Understood. And I want to let you know I'm still quite interested in
this position - would you mind if I check back next week, Maybe Tuesday?"
Empoyer: "Sure, that'd be fine So."

....Tuesday
You: "Hi! This is So-and-so, just checking in with you - we spoke last week
about the position of xxx"
Empoyer: "Oh, Hi So - how are you? We made our decision and decided to go
with another candidate."
You: "OK - understood! Well, it was good talking with you and please keep me
in mind if you have any other positions that open up that you think might be
a good match. Thanks!"
Employer: "I will, good luck So!"


Because even if the employer does find it a little annoying, he/she now
knows your name - you're not just "one in the pile" anymore, and they also
have seen your communication skills and your ability to get what you want,
without pissing off the other person.. So although you didn't "get the job",
you DID get good experience and potentially someone who likes you.

I've had that happen more than a few times, where a few months later - in a
situation like above, where the employer called ME and wanted to see if I
was interested in an opening they had..


Just some random thoughts, for whatever it's worth..
 
For a total contrast, I am a UK based programmer of 12 years standing
and all of my jobs (bar the first, which was a graduate programme hire)
have been obtained through recruitment agencies. It did take me a while
to get the original job - it was a pretty bad year, but since then I
have never had any problems using agents.

I'd be curious - has anybody experience both sides of the pond that can
comment whether it's an experience thing or a UK vs US mindset thing?
 
By far and away the best way to get a job is by "who you know." Make
contacts, keep in contact, and use your contacts. I have only ever had
to go to two "cold" interviews in my entire career of 20 years! The
point is to gain a reputation as a knowledgeable, keen worker. Then, as
the people you have worked with move around to different companies,
stay in touch and you will hear about opportunities.

When you hear about a great opportunity that you like, take it!
Negotiate as much transition time as you can manage, then give your
current boss lots of notice and tidy up all of the loose ends you can
before you go (including documentation). You will be remembered fondly
as someone who took your company's welfare seriously. Every place I've
ever worked wants me back, because I treated them with respect when I
left.

On the other hand, if you act like a 90's code prima donna and throw
tantrums when you don't get things your way, that will be remembered,
too. Then you have to have a skookum resume and write brilliant code so
that you can get those cold calls working for you.

In the absence of contacts and headhunters (I don't know much about
using them), I recommend researching a company before you submit your
resume, and tailoring your resume to the company. DON'T send
photocopies of the same resume to every company. Read their ad, find
out what kind of person they want, and rearrange your resume to
emphasize those aspects of your training and experience. There is no
sense applying to a company looking for a C# programmer by sending them
a resume with C# listed third under your competencies, even if it
really is third.

Finally, embellish a bit. Yes, I know: we're not supposed to say that,
but it's true. Write your resume to the level of what you think you can
do, or you think you can convince someone in an interview that you can
do and then pick up quickly on the job. Once in a blue moon you'll get
burned, but not often. For example, if you have three months'
experience playing around with C#, list C# as one of your core
competencies, unless you're a slow learner.

Let's face it: half the guys out there writing their resumes are lying
through their teeth. One job I was at I found C code written by a COBOL
programmer who had sold himself in an interview as a "C guru." No, you
don't want to be that guy, because I still remember his code and his
name and would never give him a job. However, that's what you're up
against, and they'll interview him before they interview you.

A very bright friend of mine used to read ads and simply write
everything he saw there into his resume. Then, if he got a phone call,
he would spend the night before the interview in the library (pre-Web
:). Now, he was a smart guy, so he got the jobs, and within a month was
better than the guy who really did have the experience. I wouldn't
recommend going that far unless you graduated at the top of your class,
like he did. However, don't sell yourself short, either: tell them what
you think you'll be able to do after a few weeks on the job, not what
you can do now.
 
Fun question.

Short answer: 2 out of 3 jobs were through someone I knew.
The majority of my husband's jobs were through someone
he knew.

Long answer . . .
The year I graduated college, the market was booming (internet startups
growing like crazy, Y2K programming just getting started), and I had a
near-perfect GPA. I went to a job fair on campus (volunteered to help setup,
so most of the recruiters saw me before it even got started), and found a
job with little further effort -- I'd already talked to HR people from
about 10 companies face to face, and some of them called me.
Since then, I've only got new jobs through referrals from someone who worked
there.

My husband worked a lot harder at getting his jobs. He studied the job
market to figure out what he wanted. Worked at developing the skills they
were looking for. Actively kept contact with anyone who he worked well with
in the past. Slightly embellished his resume, and then studied like crazy
for interviews & tests so he wouldn't look stupid. Followed up his resumes
with emails and/or phone calls. The whole 9 yards.

-Rachel
 
RCS said:
Congrats!

The culture of where you live has a lot to do with it. I live in an area
where there is exaclty one metropolis for a few hours in each direction, so
the IT market is pretty small. In that case, it is ALL about who you know.
Once you establish a reputation of sorts, you sort of hear through the
grapevine about openings.
Click to expand...

My location here in Oregon sounds about the same. Most the work is in
the Portland metro area. There are some job openings, though, in the
smaller areas like Salem (closer to my location), Corvallis (HP's area),
and Eugene-Springfield. I'm fortunate enough to have met a senior flash
programmer/designer? who works at Nike here in Oregon who passed my
resume along to somebody in his office. I'll keep my fingers crossed
there:)!

But if you don't have the advantage of already being plugged in, two things
are usually successful: being persistent/making yourself stand out and
using headhunters.
Click to expand...

I've been trying the headhunter routine a bit so far. I've also been
checking the CareerBuilder and Monster sites multi-daily. There's also a
nice site for Oregon jobs hosted by the Oregon Employment Department.
Many will say that headhunters (a.k.a. "recruiters") are no good because
companies don't want to spend the money, but in reality, the cost of weeding
out decent candidates for a company is just about the same price as getting
a headhunter and having them give you pre-screened candidates.
Click to expand...

Yep, we had many representatives speak to our "senior project" class
about the cost of hiring to the employer including the interview process.
So get hooked
in with one or two at the most headhunters. Keep them updated with where you
are submitted. If two headhunters submit you for the same job - you will not
get the job, because the company won't want to deal with the pissing contest
between the headhunters - so beware of that. Also, only work with a
headhunter that will only submit your name/resume to a company after getting
permission from you. Again, this is key in that there are MANY places that
will pretty much drop your resume from an airplane like leaflets over Iraq -
so that way, wherever you get a job, they will be able to make a claim on
it. Headhunters make thier money when you get hired.
Click to expand...

OK, good advice, there.
And on being persistent - don't be afraid at all to call and keep calling,
but not be a stalker. The key is, you are just a name on a piece of paper
when you start, you need to start building a repoire. For example:

You: "I'm so-and-so, I submitted my resume for the position of xxx and I'm
calling to see if you've had a chance to review it yet?"
Empoyer: "Not yet, we've been wading through a lot of resumes."
You: "I'm very interested in this position, so if you have any questions on
my resume or would like to arrange an interview, please let me know!"
Empoyer: "OK, thanks, we'll let you know."
You: "When should I expect to hear back from you?"
Empoyer: "Well, I'm not sure - we have a lot of resumes to review."
You: "Would you mind if I checked back in a few days, maybe Thursday?"
Empoyer: "Sure, that'd be fine."

...Thursday
You: "Hi! This is So-and-so, just checking in with you - we spoke earlier in
the week about the position of xxx"
Empoyer: "Oh, Hi So.. we're still going through resumes, I'm sorry - we'll
let you know when we decide something."
You: "Understood. And I want to let you know I'm still quite interested in
this position - would you mind if I check back next week, Maybe Tuesday?"
Empoyer: "Sure, that'd be fine So."

...Tuesday
You: "Hi! This is So-and-so, just checking in with you - we spoke last week
about the position of xxx"
Empoyer: "Oh, Hi So - how are you? We made our decision and decided to go
with another candidate."
You: "OK - understood! Well, it was good talking with you and please keep me
in mind if you have any other positions that open up that you think might be
a good match. Thanks!"
Employer: "I will, good luck So!"


Because even if the employer does find it a little annoying, he/she now
knows your name - you're not just "one in the pile" anymore, and they also
have seen your communication skills and your ability to get what you want,
without pissing off the other person.. So although you didn't "get the job",
you DID get good experience and potentially someone who likes you.

I've had that happen more than a few times, where a few months later - in a
situation like above, where the employer called ME and wanted to see if I
was interested in an opening they had..


Just some random thoughts, for whatever it's worth..
Click to expand...


Thanks a bunch, they're worth a lot to me. For somebody on the outside,
like myself, even the most trivial and mundane to seasoned veterans, or
even those on the job only a year or two, is all new to me and I hold
high interest in. Thanks for your reply.


Michael Hughes - Silverton, Oregon
http://wou.ath.cx/Trivia
 
k said:
For a total contrast, I am a UK based programmer of 12 years standing
and all of my jobs (bar the first, which was a graduate programme hire)
have been obtained through recruitment agencies. It did take me a while
to get the original job - it was a pretty bad year, but since then I
have never had any problems using agents.
Click to expand...

Do agents take a fair sized chunk out of your check for compensation?
 
Bruce said:
By far and away the best way to get a job is by "who you know." Make
contacts, keep in contact, and use your contacts. I have only ever had
to go to two "cold" interviews in my entire career of 20 years! The
point is to gain a reputation as a knowledgeable, keen worker. Then, as
the people you have worked with move around to different companies,
stay in touch and you will hear about opportunities.
Click to expand...


I'm starting to get the impression that this is a major part of how this
process works. My other half's sister's husband went to my exact
university and received my exact degree back in 2000 and seems to get
all his jobs from former coworkers. I guess you could say the same for
me, as I worked with the fellow (cleaning dishes way-back-when) that got
me the contract work with this Scottish firm out of Dubai, UAE: the sort
of out-sourcing I like -- outsourced to America :).
When you hear about a great opportunity that you like, take it!
Negotiate as much transition time as you can manage, then give your
current boss lots of notice and tidy up all of the loose ends you can
before you go (including documentation). You will be remembered fondly
as someone who took your company's welfare seriously. Every place I've
ever worked wants me back, because I treated them with respect when I
left.
Click to expand...

That's some good, sound advice.
On the other hand, if you act like a 90's code prima donna and throw
tantrums when you don't get things your way, that will be remembered,
too. Then you have to have a skookum resume and write brilliant code so
that you can get those cold calls working for you.
Click to expand...

I wonder if some of those prima donnas didn't have to suffer through
drudge jobs like working at a Subway Sandwiches for 2+ years :)..
Perhaps, they don't respect how well they have it!
In the absence of contacts and headhunters (I don't know much about
using them), I recommend researching a company before you submit your
resume, and tailoring your resume to the company. DON'T send
photocopies of the same resume to every company. Read their ad, find
out what kind of person they want, and rearrange your resume to
emphasize those aspects of your training and experience. There is no
sense applying to a company looking for a C# programmer by sending them
a resume with C# listed third under your competencies, even if it
really is third.
Click to expand...

I've learned about the "research the company" part but didn't really
think about tailoring the résumé per employer. I'm glad you mentioned that.
Finally, embellish a bit. Yes, I know: we're not supposed to say that,
but it's true. Write your resume to the level of what you think you can
do, or you think you can convince someone in an interview that you can
do and then pick up quickly on the job. Once in a blue moon you'll get
burned, but not often. For example, if you have three months'
experience playing around with C#, list C# as one of your core
competencies, unless you're a slow learner.

Let's face it: half the guys out there writing their resumes are lying
through their teeth. One job I was at I found C code written by a COBOL
programmer who had sold himself in an interview as a "C guru." No, you
don't want to be that guy, because I still remember his code and his
name and would never give him a job. However, that's what you're up
against, and they'll interview him before they interview you.

A very bright friend of mine used to read ads and simply write
everything he saw there into his resume. Then, if he got a phone call,
he would spend the night before the interview in the library (pre-Web
:). Now, he was a smart guy, so he got the jobs, and within a month was
better than the guy who really did have the experience. I wouldn't
recommend going that far unless you graduated at the top of your class,
like he did. However, don't sell yourself short, either: tell them what
you think you'll be able to do after a few weeks on the job, not what
you can do now.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input,

Michael Hughes - Silverton, Oregon
http://wou.ath.cx/Trivia
 
Rachel said:
Fun question.

Short answer: 2 out of 3 jobs were through someone I knew.
The majority of my husband's jobs were through someone
he knew.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's how it's starting to look.
Long answer . . .
The year I graduated college, the market was booming (internet startups
growing like crazy, Y2K programming just getting started), and I had a
near-perfect GPA. I went to a job fair on campus (volunteered to help setup,
so most of the recruiters saw me before it even got started), and found a
job with little further effort -- I'd already talked to HR people from
about 10 companies face to face, and some of them called me.
Since then, I've only got new jobs through referrals from someone who worked
there.
Click to expand...

Some good strategy there. I wish I hadn't missed the boom, the nice
signing bonuses too!

My husband worked a lot harder at getting his jobs. He studied the job
market to figure out what he wanted. Worked at developing the skills they
were looking for. Actively kept contact with anyone who he worked well with
in the past. Slightly embellished his resume, and then studied like crazy
for interviews & tests so he wouldn't look stupid. Followed up his resumes
with emails and/or phone calls. The whole 9 yards.

-Rachel
Click to expand...

I'm trying to keep in touch with those I graduated with too. Only one,
so far, besides myself is working in the field though he's a good friend
with common interest outside this field as well. This is really turning
into a field where the studying & learning continues at a good pace well
past graduation! Thanks for your insight.



Michael Hughes - Silverton, Oregon
http://wou.ath.cx/Trivia
 
Yes for contract work, but I can't recall the % exactly - I just looked
at the net daily rate to me. Compared to what the governement took in
taxes (roughly 50% of turnover, even with the optimal setup!) it was
peanuts :-)

For permament work the recruiting company pays (10-20% of annual salary
if the person stays past the agreed period - 3 months usually). I stick
my CV out to reasonable looking jobs advertised on the main IT
recruitment websites and it seems to get the calls coming in from the
agents. If I could get a job direct with a company, I would, as since
the company saves money they often up the salary - but that is back to
contacts - few companies advertise direct as processing CVs is time
consuming to the senrior staff - I know, I have been through hundreds
in my time.

Due to the tax situation in the UK at present, I am as well off in
permanent work as in contracts, when you take into account the private
healthcare, paid holidays, not having to pay the accountant etc.
 
This is really turning
into a field where the studying & learning continues at a good pace
well
past graduation!

:-) It *never* stops and it can be pretty breakneck. You will have your
nose in books/websites pretty constantly just to stand still. You
really have to like learing new stuff all teh time or you will get
totally fed up and burnt out.

Only bad part is that it can be hard to take any significant chunk of
time off to do other things.
 
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