for chuck (regarding your style)

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jameshanley39

By only ever linking people to results on your website, you are making
people very dependent on you and your material. I don't think that's
fair to the technical community.

No other experts or MVPs do that. Hence, they cater to both novice
end users, and the technical community.

It's a shame, because when you answer a thread, another expert may
choose not to, and so all we get is your material.

I see you want to advertise your skills/services "PC Chuck's network".
It wouldn't be a bad idea to set up your own google group!
You may well have many customers. .
 
By only ever linking people to results on your website, you are making
people very dependent on you and your material. I don't think that's
fair to the technical community.

No other experts or MVPs do that. Hence, they cater to both novice
end users, and the technical community.

It's a shame, because when you answer a thread, another expert may
choose not to, and so all we get is your material.

I see you want to advertise your skills/services "PC Chuck's network".
It wouldn't be a bad idea to set up your own google group!
You may well have many customers. .

That's ridiculous. I use links to material I've written on my website
often in my answers to posters and so do lots of other people refer to
their own websites. People are not "dependent" on any one source of
information as long as they have Internet access.

Chuck has done a huge amount of work writing answers to networking
questions and he is an excellent resource. Nothing is forcing you or
anyone else to be so stupid as to not use Google if you want other input.

Troll. *plonk*


Malke
 
I see nothing wrong with linking to the answer on his site, why would he
want to rewrite the answer when it is already written out in full and only
needs a link.
You will see a lot of the experts and MVP's just giving a link for the
answer to problems and there is nothing wrong with that, it means they
have helped that poster and have more time to go and help someone else
instead of being tied down writing out the answer.
Joan
 
By only ever linking people to results on your website, you are making
people very dependent on you and your material. I don't think that's
fair to the technical community.

No other experts or MVPs do that. Hence, they cater to both novice
end users, and the technical community.

It's a shame, because when you answer a thread, another expert may
choose not to, and so all we get is your material.

I see you want to advertise your skills/services "PC Chuck's network".
It wouldn't be a bad idea to set up your own google group!
You may well have many customers. .


Possibly the reason you don't see anyone else answer after Chuck is because
his answers are almost always right. I usually read his answers myself as I
learn a lot from them.
 
By only ever linking people to results on your website, you are making
people very dependent on you and your material. I don't think that's
fair to the technical community.

No other experts or MVPs do that. Hence, they cater to both novice
end users, and the technical community.

It's a shame, because when you answer a thread, another expert may
choose not to, and so all we get is your material.

I see you want to advertise your skills/services "PC Chuck's network".
It wouldn't be a bad idea to set up your own google group!
You may well have many customers. .

Hi James,

It is awfully hard to provide answers that appeal to everybody here, yet provide
effective solutions. That's why some folks here use hypertext, rather than flat
files (all detail in posts), in helping. Windows Networking is a very deep
subject, with hundreds of possible problems. Sometimes the problems stem from
someone buying their computer at Walmart (and I shop there too), but we try to
go beyond that and help teach the Walmart shoppers.

This forum, like many busy ones on the Internet, is very large. Not one person
here knows all of the answers. Typically, many people help provide the answers,
and learn from each other as they do. And when one person gives a bogus
(intentionally or otherwise) answer, the folks who know the answer don't let a
bogus answer stand very long.

I started my blog long ago, purely as notes which I would copy and paste into my
responses here. Then I realised that my notes all related to each other, so I
hyper linked everything, which made it hard to copy and paste effectively. Then
I found people reading my blog.

If I've offended you, I apologise. This brings to mind the story about the old
man and his son taking their donkey to sell at the village market, a story which
I did use in one of my blog articles, but you don't want to read that. How to
transport the donkey was a question with many answers, none of which pleased all
of the neighbours watching the trio, and none of the three made it alive to the
market. That is an Aesop's fable, I believe, which you may Google at your
leisure.
 
By only ever linking people to results on your website, you are making
people very dependent on you and your material. I don't think that's
fair to the technical community.

No other experts or MVPs do that.

I do it too, to an even larger degree than many others.

There are several very good reasons for this. One is that for
many symptoms there is a whole list of possible causes, and I
cannot always write them into every message. I also find that I
tend to forget the less likely causes when I try to compose a
direct reply. Another, related one is that a web site is
designed with much more care than a single newsgroup message.
Hence, they cater to both novice
end users, and the technical community.

It's a shame, because when you answer a thread, another expert may
choose not to, and so all we get is your material.

I see you want to advertise your skills/services "PC Chuck's network".
It wouldn't be a bad idea to set up your own google group!
You may well have many customers. .

MVPs aren't likely to do that, except in much narrower niches
like developers, because it would suffer from the same problems.

By the way, my experiences with giving advice in a newsgroup
aren't very good. The case that somebody describes a problem and
an MVP comes, understands it, and can solve it perfectly, is
rare. The case that somebody comes to a newsgroup and expects to
obtain a solution to his problem with a minimum of effort,
preferably less effort than the MVP expends to solve it, is
frequent.

I could go on telling really frustrating stories about newsgroup
users who don't follow the given advice and even lie about it in
an attempt to force others to do their work, but I have to watch
my available time too. (:-) I have, for the most part, withdrawn
from the newsgroups, because I believe they are of very limited
efficiency, and rely on people finding my web site through
search systems like Google. The number of hits they get seems to
confirm that this works quite well, I believe better than the
newsgroups. I am sure that the usefulness of the time I spent is
quite a bit higher than any newsgroup activities.

An interesting example is the http://winhlp.com/wxnet.htm web
page. It contains diagnostic tools that allow me to check what a
user actually did.

The results are very interesting. I get a lot of emails from
unknown people thanking me for the web site. In the newsgroups,
I sometimes direct somebody to the page, and sometimes get a
newsgroup reply that the user did everything described on the
web page, and that I should give him more help. I then always
find that the user didn't actually follow the advice on the web
page, or the user stops responding. The case that a user tries
to solve a problem through the web page, fails, and there is
actually a mistake or a gap on the web page, is very, very rare.
When it happens, perhaps once or twice a year, I always amend or
extend the web page instantly.

So the conclusion is that web sites are actually very useful for
many users, particularly for those who are willing to put in
some of their own effort in solving their problem.

The only thing I could not provide is assistance to totally
inexperienced and technically uneducated users. The only thing I
do for them is to point them to step-by-step guides on other web
sites. Unfortunately the effort to help a very unsophisticated
user is so high and the resulting efficiency so low that I
simply cannot expend the time.

Hans-Georg
 
Hi James,

It is awfully hard to provide answers that appeal to everybody here, yet provide
effective solutions. That's why some folks here use hypertext, rather than flat
files (all detail in posts), in helping. Windows Networking is a very deep
subject, with hundreds of possible problems. Sometimes the problems stem from
someone buying their computer at Walmart (and I shop there too), but we try to
go beyond that and help teach the Walmart shoppers.

This forum, like many busy ones on the Internet, is very large. Not one person
here knows all of the answers. Typically, many people help provide the answers,
and learn from each other as they do. And when one person gives a bogus
(intentionally or otherwise) answer, the folks who know the answer don't let a
bogus answer stand very long.

I started my blog long ago, purely as notes which I would copy and paste into my
responses here. Then I realised that my notes all related to each other, so I
hyper linked everything, which made it hard to copy and paste effectively. Then
I found people reading my blog.

If I've offended you, I apologise. This brings to mind the story about the old
man and his son taking their donkey to sell at the village market, a story which
I did use in one of my blog articles, but you don't want to read that. How to
transport the donkey was a question with many answers, none of which pleased all
of the neighbours watching the trio, and none of the three made it alive to the
market. That is an Aesop's fable, I believe, which you may Google at your
leisure.

--


Your site is targetted at solving problems(which may well help you
too), but provides watered down explanations of technical concepts.
Heavily watered down versions of your own understanding , not written
for yourself or for technical people.

You of course, understand the concepts, and you gained an
understanding of networks from some sources, yet your website has no
references e.g. to help others understand.

Your site and service here helps people solve problems, but doesn't
help them to understand them. Yet It pretends to.

I have tried reading some of your posts, and it reminds me of when
people look for all their answers on Gibson's site. I don't want to
compare you to Gibson, he is evil. But, don't you see a similarity?
He is another person that offers watered down explanations, not for a
technical audience, and really stunts the development of his readers.
Sure though, he helps a lot of people, whilst making people very
dependent on him - in a way others don't.
 
Your site is targetted at solving problems(which may well help you
too), but provides watered down explanations of technical concepts.
Heavily watered down versions of your own understanding , not written
for yourself or for technical people.

You of course, understand the concepts, and you gained an
understanding of networks from some sources, yet your website has no
references e.g. to help others understand.

Your site and service here helps people solve problems, but doesn't
help them to understand them. Yet It pretends to.

I have tried reading some of your posts, and it reminds me of when
people look for all their answers on Gibson's site. I don't want to
compare you to Gibson, he is evil. But, don't you see a similarity?
He is another person that offers watered down explanations, not for a
technical audience, and really stunts the development of his readers.
Sure though, he helps a lot of people, whilst making people very
dependent on him - in a way others don't.

OK, James, if there is a question asked here, and you know the answer, you are
perfectly entitled to answer it. In any way that you see fit. This is an open
forum.

Maybe you have better answers, that's how we learn anyway.

We'll look forward to your learned comments.
 
OK, James, if there is a question asked here, and you know the answer, you are
perfectly entitled to answer it. In any way that you see fit. This is an open
forum.

Maybe you have better answers, that's how we learn anyway.

We'll look forward to your learned comments.

Probably not, since I don't know about much about networking. Of
course, that doesn't invalidate my point.
 
Probably not, since I don't know about much about networking. Of
course, that doesn't invalidate my point.

OK, it's good that you can admit that you don't know much about networking. And
what you probably don't know here is that this forum isn't always about
networking - it's about the people who use networking, and figuring out their
problems.

And that's why the answers - that are too basic for your learned experience
(which you admit is low) - involve more than simple networking concepts. And
that's why my website is focused on very basic concepts, and simple problems.

And now, a reminder. Malke called (implied) the troll in her post. If you're
playing the first game, you get zero points. If you're playing the second, I
call the troll again. No more troll points here, so move along.
 
Probably not, since I don't know about much about networking. Of
course, that doesn't invalidate my point.

OK, it's good that you can admit that you don't know much about networking. And
what you probably don't know here is that this forum isn't always about
networking - it's about the people who use networking, and figuring out their
problems.

And that's why the answers - that are too basic for your learned experience
(which you admit is low) - involve more than simple networking concepts. And
that's why my website is focused on very basic concepts, and simple problems.

And now, a reminder. Malke called the troll in her post. No troll points here,
so move along. (Sorry, Malke).
 
OK, it's good that you can admit that you don't know much about networking. And
what you probably don't know here is that this forum isn't always about
networking - it's about the people who use networking, and figuring out their
problems.

You're avoiding the issue.

What do you think of my comparison of your site to Steve Gibson's ?

How about helping them figure out their problems. So if they have a
misconception, then correct it. It doesn't seem to be a priority in
this newsgroup. I noticed that in one thread, one person whose posts I
haven't seen regularly, was great, to point out to a poster that a
switch wasn't a router.
That was one out of about 20 posts, of which i think the first 15 or
so didn't tell the guy! Either they don't know. Or they don't care
that people are technically informed or worse, misinformed. And if a
person responding doesn't know something technical, they should ask. I
notice that doesn't happen much either. A lot of people here seem to
want to solve the problem, but have no interest in having a good
understanding of the subject that the problem resides in. Which is
strange because it'd really help to solve it!!

You will try to avoid it again and say that I SHOULD RESPOND. Well I
have made a few posts. But the point is not that everybody should
respond. And if I see the post and I know, then I will. But I don't
*demand* it of those that know. My point is that IF PEOPLE RESPOND,
and people do, then they should correct misconceptions. It's obvious,
understanding the ISSUES are important. Not just the problem at hand.
But to solve the problem, and other user's problems, it's important
not to have misconceptions

And that's why the answers - that are too basic for your learned experience
(which you admit is low) - involve more than simple networking concepts. And
that's why my website is focused on very basic concepts, and simple problems.

If the concepts you write of are "basic networking concepts". Then you
wouldn't need such watered down explanations.

You seem to consistently run around the point.
And now, a reminder. Malke called (implied) the troll in her post. If you're
playing the first game, you get zero points. If you're playing the second, I
call the troll again. No more troll points here, so move along.

what a suprise.

You're just upset that you help so many people and you can't take
criticism. Constructive or otherwise.

So you avoid my point. You're not a troll. I expected you to be
initially polite, then to try to get rid of me by calling me a troll,
then to skirt around the issue.
Not because you're a bad character, it's just a typical aspect of
human nature. Your brain is just working to avoid what you don't want
to hear 'cos it's criticism.
 
People post here to solve their problems not to learn why and how. But if
they do want to know why and how the problem is solved they can ask for
clarification. I doubt there are people here that complain Chuck solved
their problem but he didn't teach them in the process.
 
People post here to solve their problems not to learn why and how. But if
they do want to know why and how the problem is solved they can ask for
clarification. I doubt there are people here that complainChucksolved
their problem but he didn't teach them in the process.

I'm talking of sharing technical knowledge , as a technical person
understands it. Rather than teaching

I think in defending him you've made my argument stronger than I
intended it ;-)

Chuck's site does teach or explain somewhat. In the sense that it does
provide troubleshooting information..

That is far better than people that just say
"post all your information and i'll tell you what's wrong]".

There is a culture of that here.

I think Chuck has promoted that alot.

So people now don't get much from the archives.

I chose Chuck because he's sort of a King of the group in quantity of
posts and number of people he helps. Or was a while back when I read
many posts here last. He may have other commitments now. But I see
people still using that method..

Note: Other newsgroups also have a faulty method coming from the other
direction. They just don't link anywhere and don't give "all the
possibilities"(I don't mean every single one, but at least generally,
and expanding where necessary). But, I think the faulty method here
is the worser kind.
 
The point is that most people who come here just want their problem solved
and wouldn't understand the technical side of it anyway so why muddy the
waters.
Joan
 
Joan Archer said:
The point is that most people who come here just want their problem solved
and wouldn't understand the technical side of it anyway so why muddy the
waters.
Joan

Well said.
 
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