Education, Training, etc...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mark Anderson
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Mark Anderson

Hi,
I would really appreciate any help that any of you can
offer. I do MS Excel classes and MS Acess classes. The
problem that I have is this: I have occasionally been
asked how to do something in Excel, and my response is "I
would do what you are describing in Access." I have lost
one client over this, and I just recieved a message not to
direct people to use a different product, simply teach the
class we've asked. I have a problem "manufacturing" an
answer. When someone describes a database problem that is
difficult or impossible to achieve in Excel, I am going to
recommend a database management system. Unfortunatly, I've
realized that people get disturbingly attached to the
product they are using and are hell-bent to use it, even
if it is'nt the ideal solution.
Please help me understand these people, and how I can
respond without offending.

Thank you for any help.

Mark
 
I am not an expert in this area. But your question interested me.

My suggestion is, show them the ways to do the task in both Excel
and Access. Then tell them: you see, both programs are capable,
but as to this particular task, as you'v just seen, using Access
would be much easier. Don't forget to tell them, some other taks
may suit Excel more than Access.

If I am the student, I would feel that I learnt a lot.

If you simply direct them to Access, they probably think: 1)you
may not know the answer and/or 2)you try to convince them to use
Access so they pay you training cost again and/or 3)you are not
helpful as you didn't answer their question but directed them
to a direction they are reluctant to change to and/or 4)you may
have some sort of deal with Microsoft.

Does this help you understand them?

ad
 
-----Original Message-----
I am not an expert in this area. But your question interested me.

My suggestion is, show them the ways to do the task in both Excel
and Access. Then tell them: you see, both programs are capable,
but as to this particular task, as you'v just seen, using Access
would be much easier. Don't forget to tell them, some other taks
may suit Excel more than Access.

If I am the student, I would feel that I learnt a lot.

If you simply direct them to Access, they probably think: 1)you
may not know the answer and/or 2)you try to convince them to use
Access so they pay you training cost again and/or 3)you are not
helpful as you didn't answer their question but directed them
to a direction they are reluctant to change to and/or 4) you may
have some sort of deal with Microsoft.

Does this help you understand them?

ad




.
Thanks much for your reply.
Click to expand...
I've already considered much of what you recommend, often
the solution in Excel is so involved that I simply
say "why would you want to even attempt this solution,
when the database solution is so much simpler." I know
that they think I am "dodging" their question, and I guess
I am, but I can't bring myself to even describe the Excel
solution forget trying to actually solve it.

I find this very troubling, I've found people that want to
write a letter in Excel, simply because they don't feel
comfortable in Word. This is much easier for me to "shift"
their thinking. But a Table in Access and a Worksheet in
Excel look far to similar, trying to explain the
difference seems to fall on deaf ears.

More responses are encouraged...Please

Thanks,
Mark
 
Hi!

Interesting Q!

Well, they say that the customer always is right. That´s not tru and we all
know this. But, the customer don´t have to know this. At least not in a way
so the feel offended.

So how shall you/I anyone know if a person get´s offended? Impossible if you
ask me since everyone are unique and have unique experience of life!

So what we are deeling with here is a psycoligical problem and to be able to
deel with this we have to be like a schrink doctor. The way to go is to let
the customer hand you the solution of which aplication to use. So an
explanation of advatages/disadvantages in both programs comes handy here.
Without beeing to controlable and guiding just for Access if the customer
have asked for an Excell application.

But in the end you DO have to let the customer make there own choice. They
are the once that are paying you. So I guess that the customer is allways
right. ;-)

// Niklas
 
Hi Mark,

It is to be hoped that you have a course prospectus or outline for each
course you teach. You should be able to give your questioners the
information you already have given them and, in addition, point out that
solving their particular problem within Excel is not covered in the course
material. Yes, indeed, you can do increasingly difficult things with Excel
but the programming becomes ever more awkward and the user has to remain
intimately connected to that implementation. To devote any class time to
solving their problem would be unfair to their classmates and would prevent
your covering your required material. The sad fact is that lots of Excel
power users can't believe that Access could possibly provide a better
solution than Excel. They believe it's a grand conspiracy between Microsoft
and a bunch of greedy developers. ]:-)

People and organizations fall in love with the tools they have spent so much
time and mental anguish mastering. Lots of techie organizations look upon
Excel as an essential tool of the trade and insist that just about every
piece of calculated or tabular information be presented in an Excel
workbook. They want to be able to plumb the depths of every cell and track
every calculation. They don't actually do all of those things but if they
couldn't they'd want to know what was being 'hidden' from them. We Access
developers have to continually work to open people's eyes to other
possibilities. That being said, don't think we're immune to the affliction;
some bits of tabular data is so trivial that Access requires too large an
investment for the return. Word tables or Excel spreadsheets will do the
job as well and for less cost.

HTH
 
So what if you could use two different things to do the same task?

You could use a frying pan to boile an egg but it sure is easyer to use an
ordinary pan! You could use a rake to digg a hole in the ground but it sure
would bee easyer to use a spade, and so on!

Several task could be done in both Excell and Access. In some cases Excell
is better and others Access! That´s when it get´s a little bit tricky trying
to explain this to someone who don´t know the differenses between these two
programs.

// Niklas
 
Very simple explanation - just use some examples of "Real Life".
Will you use your microwave oven to dry your laundry? Or will you use remove
the fan from your processor, in order to get heat and cook some eggs? Or
will you use your brand new BMW to transport your furniture when you change
your house? No, of course!
So, if you could accomplish any task with Access or Excel, will the other
application exist? No. Just find good explanation about ins and outs of
Excel and Access - the first is Flat database, but strong with calculations,
managing financial data and so on, and the second is very powerful database
management program, when dealing with much more complicated database issues.
 
Yes, you can do several tasks with both Excel and Access.
Now, this is the challenge - to be able to explain WHY when you need to make
calculations, produce simple reports and so one you would use Excel, not
Access. Because it is much simpler to add digits, perform various
calculations, predict some values (financial functions), use the power of
the built-in functions, which Excel offers. It is much easier to type in
cell c1: = a1+b1 and copy the formula down, or to use Goal Seek, or
Subtotals, Consolidation with Excel, instead to code and to try to "trick"
Access to do things, that can be done much faster and easier in Excel.
Now the opposing thing - when you need a robust database, that goes beyond
the scope of the simple invoice, when you need to add thousands of records
and you need to control the data, the input, and to reduce typing mistakes
when entering same data again... when you need the power of the queries,
reports, forms you will definitely use Access. With Access you can reduce
user input and limit it to correct values (yes, you can do that with Excel
too, but it is easier to make a look-up field, and to limit the input to the
values of that field, instead of doing validation in Excel).
The best way to show the power of Access and Excel is to make them
opponents. Show the power of the calculations in Excel. Show the power of
the real, robust, powerful, normalized database in Access.
 
Yes, I know! The problem isn´t me and the fact is that I don´t have a
problem with it at all since I don´t develop anything for money but just for
the fun of it!

But I can imagin the problem that Mark Anderson is refering to and that it
can be a problem to explain for people that don´t have a clue. Or perhaps
the do and think that they know which aplication is the best just because
they are so conveniet with one program (most common have to be Excell or
Word).

// Niklas
 
Mark said:
Hi,
I would really appreciate any help that any of you can
offer. I do MS Excel classes and MS Acess classes. The
problem that I have is this: I have occasionally been
asked how to do something in Excel, and my response is "I
would do what you are describing in Access." I have lost
one client over this, and I just recieved a message not to
direct people to use a different product, simply teach the
class we've asked. I have a problem "manufacturing" an
answer. When someone describes a database problem that is
difficult or impossible to achieve in Excel, I am going to
recommend a database management system. Unfortunatly, I've
realized that people get disturbingly attached to the
product they are using and are hell-bent to use it, even
if it is'nt the ideal solution.
Please help me understand these people, and how I can
respond without offending.

Thank you for any help.

Mark
Click to expand...

Mark, you're absolutely correct, it's horses for courses.

You can achieve a fair bit with excel but some thinhs are a heap easier in
Access and vice versa.
 
Niklas said:
Yes, I know! The problem isn´t me and the fact is that I don´t have a
problem with it at all since I don´t develop anything for money but
just for the fun of it!

But I can imagin the problem that Mark Anderson is refering to and
that it can be a problem to explain for people that don´t have a
clue. Or perhaps the do and think that they know which aplication is
the best just because they are so conveniet with one program (most
common have to be Excell or Word).

// Niklas
Click to expand...

Never mind if your table has more than 65535 records!
 
Short of teaching them the difference between a spreadsheet or flat fil
and a relational database there is no way to keep from offending them.

People train themselves to think in two dimensions and a spreadsheet i
understandable and safe to them. When you try to take them out o
their comfort zone they will balk.

You give them the advice that it would be more adviseable to do this i
Access but if they insist you do it in excel and excel is capable o
handling the problem, you do it in excel or tell them how to do it. I
Excel is not capable of handling the problem, tell them so
 
Please help me understand these people, and how I can
respond without offending.
Click to expand...

My phrase (which may indeed offend some fanatic supporters of Excel)
is "You can drive nails with a crescent wrench but that doesn't make
it a hammer!"

A bit gentler: I'll sometimes say that Excel is a spreadsheet, an
excellent one; Access is a relational database. They are both very
good in their own domain, but trying to implement a relational
database in Excel (or, for that matter, a what-if data manipulation
application in Access) is simply making life harder for yourself. Some
projects are better done in Excel than in Access, and vice versa.
 
-----Original Message-----


Never mind if your table has more than 65535 records!


.
Click to expand...
Thank you all for your input.
Still, you tell someone who is standing on train tracks
that a train is coming and they don't see a train coming
because they won't turn around and see that it is coming
from the other direction...I find that there are still
people that refuse to see the whole picture.

Thanks again,

Mark
 
-----Original Message-----


Never mind if your table has more than 65535 records!


.
Click to expand...
Thanks John V.,
I always find your responses to be well thought out and
clear.

Mark
 
dandgard said:
People train themselves to think in two dimensions and a spreadsheet is
understandable and safe to them. When you try to take them out of
their comfort zone they will balk.
Click to expand...

Same applies to MS Access users as regards the wider world of DBMS.
Ask them to post DLL in ANSI standard SQL-92 syntax and they will
balk. They want to remain safe in the comfort their 'make table
queries' and 'append queries'. You're more likely in this ng to hear
the like of 'Open the Query Designer, click this, click that, etc'
than a simple CREATE TABLE with SELECT query example.

--
 
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