Attn: Mei Chan [MSFT]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fred
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Fred

Hi Mei Chan,

I have posted my problem at least four times now with little or no
response on this newsgroup which is frustrating to say the least.

I have WinXP Home on a Desktop and Laptop. They are networked using a
router and wireless card. Internet works fine.

I can put a file in the LAPTOP's Shared folder and access it from the
DESKTOP - I can delete the laptop file from either PC.

If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access it from the
LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all unless I reboot the

desktop. It appears that the access by the laptop changes something
drastically. I've tried shutting down explorer, no success - I have to
re-boot to delete the desktop files.

SInce no one has offered a clue about this then I must have a real
unique problem. What if I try to convert my current NTFS file system to
FAT32? If this has been caused by "permissions" etc. under NTFS, will it
go away if I can convert to FAT32 using Partition Magic?

Any reply will be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks, Fred
 
Hi Fred,

From your Laptop, can you create / edit your files on your Desktop's share?
Is the problem specific with only deleting the files on the share? Can you
delete your files from local machine itself (Desktop)?

Mei
 
Hello Mei Chan,

Thanks for your interest.

Using the laptop, I just tried to open the text file in the desktop share
folder and it opens but I can't edit the text or anything. I can copy the file
which is really what I wanted to do.

I cannot delete the files (on the desktop) from either the laptop or the
desktop.

Once again, if I do it the other way (file in laptop share) then I can delete,
edit, whatever.

Thanks and hope this helps.

Fred
 
Hello Mei Chan,

I have no clue whats going on here but I thought I would take a stab at it.
Right offhand I would think the following is happening...

1. The file is flagged as non accessible because it is in use???
2. The file is temporarily flagged as read only???

Quote:
"If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access it from the
LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all unless I reboot the
desktop."

Question:
You are able to delete the file after rebooting the desktop from which
computer? The laptop or the desktop or both? I am assuming it would be
from the desktop only.

There is not alot of info to go with here but we can gather more information
by running some tests and asking more questions...

Where is the file in question being shared?
Does this happen with any shared file?
Has this ever worked correctly?

You might try sharing a file in a folder in a different location of the hard
drive such as in the root of the C: drive, I would deffinately try this if
the shared folder is in your "my documents" folder. If the problem goes
away when you share at a different location then the problem may be with
permissions on the shared folder.

As an alternative to rebooting the computer to delete the file... try
unplugging the desktop from the network or disable the network adaptor and
then try deleting the file. If this works then for some reason the other
computer is tying up the file.

Other notes:
Changing the file system should remove the possibility of a permissions
problem however I am unaware of any method to change NTFS to FAT32 and if
there is a way I would only do this as a very last resort as there is risk
of data loss and it may not work anyways.

You are correct, this is a difficult item to troubleshoot over a newsgroup
as are most networking problems.

Good Luck!

John
 
americantechie,

Thanks for your interest, I'll reply in sections divided by ******

Fred
Hello Mei Chan,

I have no clue whats going on here but I thought I would take a stab at it.
Right offhand I would think the following is happening...

1. The file is flagged as non accessible because it is in use???
2. The file is temporarily flagged as read only???

Quote:
"If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access it from the
LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all unless I reboot the
desktop."

Question:
You are able to delete the file after rebooting the desktop from which
computer? The laptop or the desktop or both? I am assuming it would be
from the desktop only.
**************
Click to expand...
I can delete the file from the desktop (where I've always wanted to) - If I
access it at all from the laptop, it cannot be deleted. The access by the
laptop triggers this reaction on the desktop.
Click to expand...

******************
There is not a lot of info to go with here but we can gather more information by
running some tests and asking more questions...
Where is the file in question being shared?
Does this happen with any shared file?
Has this ever worked correctly?

*************
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. I started with the Documents folder (This is the Shared
Documents folder on my desktop but it is named Documents). I then made a folder
on my D drive (second partition (Fat32) same result. Now I'm using a folder
called A-Share on the C- drive and still the same.

Yes this happens with all files. I'm using a simple text file for all my testing
but my virus signatures, some DB data files, JPEG images, etc. ALL of them
cannot be edited, renamed, or deleted UNTIL I reboot. I can rename, edit,
delete, etc AFTER reboot but BEFORE any access again by the laptop.

Has not worked correctly on the desktop. It does work correctly doing everything
on the laptop. By that I mean I can place a file, or folder, into the laptop
share and access it from the desktop. Then AFTER access by the desktop, I can
rename, edit, delete from EITHER the laptop OR the Desktop.
****************
You might try sharing a file in a folder in a different location of the hard
drive such as in the root of the C: drive, I would deffinately try this if
the shared folder is in your "my documents" folder. If the problem goes
away when you share at a different location then the problem may be with
permissions on the shared folder.
*******
Click to expand...

This is answered in comments above- tried multiple folders on two partitions.
*****************
Click to expand...
As an alternative to rebooting the computer to delete the file... try
unplugging the desktop from the network or disable the network adaptor and
then try deleting the file. If this works then for some reason the other
computer is tying up the file.
******************
Click to expand...

Did that too, disconnecting the laptop after access makes no difference at all
***************
Other notes:
Changing the file system should remove the possibility of a permissions
problem however I am unaware of any method to change NTFS to FAT32 and if
there is a way I would only do this as a very last resort as there is risk
of data loss and it may not work anyways.
***********
Click to expand...

I've read here in this NG that Partition Magic can do it although it is risky. I
would create an image file before attempting this, needless to say.
 
Hello Mei Chan,

This is certainly a tricky one, I have not seen this exact problem and I
have fixed many home networks.

Do you get any errors when attempting to access the file? Does it timeout?
What exactly happens?

It would be interesting to see if this problem occurs if any other computer
besides your laptop does this to the desktop however this might be difficult
to test if you only have two computers. You could perhaps try a VPN
connection from a friends computer... not sure if this would be a good test
but I'm just trying to generate ideas. It would really help to be able to
isolate which computer is causing the problem, or maybe it could be a
combination of problems on both. Along the same lines you could also try
to access a different computer than your desktop with the laptop, maybe a
friend's computer.

Because this problem happens on shared folders anywhere, and on a FAT32
partition I think we could rule out permissions problems. It would also
rule out seem to rule out permissions problems due to the non consistent
behavior when accessing the file from the desktop (you should simply be able
to access the file or not). There still could be something funky with
permissions but it is hard to say and this can be a tricky area. At this
point I would say converting NTFS to FAT32 would be pointless as you
allready have a FAT32 partition to test this on.

You could try to put both computers into safemode with networking support
and try again, this will disable any third party software that might be
invisibly mucking with your network. This is always a simple test that
Microsoft support will typically take you through if they have no idea what
is going on.

After accessing the desktop with the laptop, actually disable the NIC or
whatever network adaptor you are using so it kills the network (do this on
the desktop) and then try to access the file (again... locally from the
desktop). You mentioned you removed the laptop from the network but again I
am more interested in seeing the network adaptor disabled on the desktop
machine.

You could try completely disabling TCP/IP, then install Netbeui and/or
IPX/SPX and try again...

Some funky settings especially permissions could be user specific, each user
has his own section in the registry that could get mucked up. On the
desktop make a new user, log into the desktop with the new user, run the
test again from start to finish. This is another trick Microsoft support
will sometimes try if nothing else works, once in a while it actually works
and it is a quick test.

Related links...
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;301041 (how to
install netbeui on windows xp)

We could also discuss worst case scenarios/last ditch efforts...
You mentioned you have more than one partition on the desktop... you could
install XP to this partition if you have enough space left over which would
setup a dual boot situation. You could boot into the second installation
and test out the problem. Here you will have a completely clean
installation and if the problem persists then the laptop is to blame. You
could do this with either the laptop or the desktop. Removing the second
installation after the test is real simple, just delete the XP OS folders
and remove the second entry from the boot.ini and you are back to normal.

I have given you alot to chew on so I will stop here. If it seems like I am
grasping for straws that is because I am ;) If nothing else hopefully I
have given you or someone else some ideas of things to try. Sometimes you
just have to test, test, test to uncover that morsel of information that
throws the problem into full light.

Good Luck!

John
 
DOH! I just realized your name is not Mei Chan... LOL sorry about that. I
guess I should be calling you Fred.
 
Hello John,

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I appreciate it very much, just knowing
someone is willing to give this some thought and offer ideas is comforting to
some extent.

One "recommended solution" which works, by the way is using SysInternals Process
Viewer. I got onto that from a number of the networking problem pages all around
the web. Basically that program shows "handles" that are on the problem files or
folders.

Here's a URL about it:
MSKB Article 242131
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;242131

That page has the URL for the SysInternals Process Viewer
http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/procexp.shtml

When I put the text file into the shared folder on the desktop, a "find" on
Process Viewer shows nothing (NO HANDLES).

As soon as I drag that file or whatever (access it from the laptop) then the
handles show up. I find that at least three handles and usually five to ten show
up in Process Viewer. I can manually delete each "handle" using Process Viewer
and after they are gone, I can go to windows explorer and delete the file. Both
PC's are on and the network is running while this happens.

I just don't understand handles. I know that Process viewer can show them and on
my desktop they ALL appear under SYSTEM. I've renamed "My Computer" to System,
so I'm not sure but perhaps it would be My Computer on another machine.

I would love to know what the heck produces those handles as they are the key to
this crazy situation. It appears that the handles are the things causing the
error "Cannot delete, another person or program is using the file....." Now,
what the heck generates/causes the handles???

I will try the SafeMode with networking and will also try to disable my NIC -
I'll just disable the NIC in Network Connections. I will post back with results
on that Tuesday. The other items seem to be really difficult and I'm reluctant
to go that way at least for now.

Thanks again, John, and take care,

Fred
 
Hello Fred,

Very nice... I forget about sysinternals, very groovy tools baby *in best
Austin Powers voice* unfortunately as you say this does not fix the problem
but does shed some light on it. By the way, the error message is actually a
great help also which you just now posted... thank you ;) Ok so it appears
the error is as it says... something is using it. Those dang handles... try
my suggestions and if you fix the problem please post...

Thanks

John
 
Hello John and ??

Well I did some troubleshooting and got mixed results.

First of all, I booted both the desktop AND laptop in SAFE MODE with Networking.
The good news is everything WORKED! I was able to place a file in a desktop
share folder, then access it using the laptop, then delete the file on the
desktop. THIS DOES NOT WORK IN NORMAL MODE.

Next, I booted the laptop in Normal mode and the Desktop in SafeMode. This also
worked!

Next, I booted the laptop in SafeMode and the Desktop in normal mode and it DID
NOT WORK (that is the file on the desktop could not be deleted with the error
message "another person or program is using the file ......"

So, something on the desktop is causing this problem and the something is what
runs in normal mode versus Safe Mode. Any ideas?

Thanks, Fred
 
Hello Fred,

Excellent troubleshooting, it seems we are getting somewhere! When you run
into a tricky problem the only way you can get to a resolution is to test,
test, test. This process is a textbook case of what Microsoft support calls
SAFEMODE/CLEANBOOT troubleshooting or and can be used for most problems .
This is basically a process of elimation and we will continue this process
from here. You started out in safemode w/ networking which disables most
hardware and software except that which is required to boot the computer and
get basic network functionality. We have isolated the problem computer
(desktop) and know that it also works when in a state of bare bones
functionality. We also know the problem lies in either hardware or software
that was disabled but does not appear to be a Windows "system" error such as
corruption because the problem went away in safemode. We will now focus our
attention on everything that safemode has disabled. The next step is the
"cleanboot" part of the process. The tool we will use from here is MSCONFIG
(start -> run -> msconfig) which allows us to disable services and software
which loads on startup. Note that MSCONFIG does not have the ability to
disable hardware as safemode did. Hardware could still be a cause of the
problem however in this situation it is unlikely. If MSCONFIG does not lead
to a resolution then we can revisit this possibility. In the MSCONFIG
tool you will see tabs across the top, we are only concerned about the last
two which are services and startup. The services tab generally refers to
programs that actively run in the background such as Anti-Virus software and
are non user specific. On this tab make sure you click "hide all microsoft
services". This option makes no physical changes and leaves a list that
only contains third party services. We do this because it is unlikely that
a Microsoft service is causing the problem and some services are better left
alone if possible. An example is the system restore service which will kill
all of your old restore points when stopped. You are left with a much
smaller and easier to manage list, uncheck everything and it might even be a
good idea to keep a log as you go as things can change. Next click on the
startup tab and uncheck everything. Click OK and you will then be prompted
to reboot, click OK to reboot. When the computer comes back up test the
problem again, if the problem does not appear then we know the culprit lies
in one of the items that we unchecked in msconfig. Again... we are using a
process of elimination, you can now go back to MSCONFIG and check one item
that we had unchecked earlier, click OK, reboot, test again, rinse, repeat.
Keep doing this until the problem comes back, you will then look at your log
to find the last item that was checked and you have found the cause. Put
the computer back to normal, reboot, remove the offending software. As a
variation of the above step you can check two items at a time, or three, or
you can do a "divide and conquer" approach where you check half of the
items, make sure you keep a good log. I have posted a small technical
handbook so I will stop here, again I have given you lots to chew on so have
fun! Please post your results.

Extra notes:
I would guess that firewalls are one of the biggest call generators to MS
networking support, if you have third party firewall software installed,
REMOVE IT. In some cases even disabling a firewall may not fix a problem
that was caused by the firewall.

When rechecking disabled items in msconfig it does not matter if you start
with services or startup as they are all suspects to be treated equally.
You may see things in one of these tabs that are more obvious as a possible
suspect than others such as firewalls in this case. Make sure you keep a
log. Some programs may have enties in both services AND startup, the most
important area being services.

Before doing any of the above make sure you have disabled any Firewall
software you may have loaded because

Have problems browsing? Keep your computer free of spyware by installing,
UPDATING, then scanning with software such as Adaware. Like antivirus
software this is only effective if you update the program. This is another
big generator of networking calls to microsoft however it is unlikely to be
causing problems in this case.

Good luck!

John
 
Hi John,

Thanks for getting back to me on this one. I wanted to also let you know that I
also disabled the NIC connection and the problem was still there. Just for your
info as that was another thing you mentioned.

I've already tried unchecking everything in the "startup" tab and tested with no
luck there.

I will go the processes route tomorrow and again will report back here. I sure
hope we find what the heck is going on. I've also created another thread asking
for ideas about what folks think about the difference between safemode and
normal mode could be as I wasn't sure if you were able to get back to me on this
thread. No big deal, that can't hurt, I suppose.

Your comments about the firewall have me wondering. Before I got this far, I
read numerous posts that one should remove the firewall. I have Zone Alarm (free
version - just updated actually) and before the update I removed it and still
had the problem. Now I realize that it might be more than just ZA and could be a
combination of programs.

Let me get this clear, do you mean totally uninstall it or just uncheck the
"load at startup" option in ZA. I've seen other posts that say you should also
delete all the files in the c:\windows\internet logs folder - any comments on
that?

Lastly, my systems are clean, I regularly run Adaware and Spybot, and use eTrust
EZAV and update daily manually. I even ran a virus check on my C drive again
this afternoon for the hell of it.

Thanks again, John, and I hope I have good news tomorrow.

Fred
 
Hello Fred,

Just to anwer some of your latest questions...

First a quick note: Of the items in MSCONFIG, those that are on the
services tab are by far the most important. When I troubleshoot a computer
sometimes I don't even look at the startup, I just go straight for the
services tab.

Zonealarm - good product and powerful, however I have seen it cause it's
fair share of problems. Earlier I mentioned that some software has entries
on both the startup and the services tab, I believe Zonealarm is one of
those programs, make sure you hit both areas. When I troubleshoot a
computer with networking programs I like to play it safe by uninstalling the
firewall, you can always reinstall it later. Of course you can simply
disable it first but if that doesn't fix the problem I say go ahead and
remove. Other than that I do not have any extra input on removing this
program. You could always do away with this type of headache by investing
in a router with filtering capabilities which also acts as a firewall.

Good luck!

John
 
Well, here's where I am as of right now - still FRUSTRATED!

I completely removed ZoneAlarm from BOTH the LT and DT computers. I disabled my
AV (eTrust EZAV) in the processes and startup panels of msconfig.

Still cannot delete a file on the DT after using the LT to copy, drag, edit,
etc. Again, no problem the other way around.

So, I decided to reconfigure the network, hoping that with ZA gone and EZAV not
started all would go well - not the case - same problem.

I also did what we talked about, that is disabled ALL startup items and non-MS
items in processes using msconfig. Same problem. I opened SysInternals Viewer
and as soon as the LT touches a file in the DT share, at least 3 and usually 4
handles show up in the "System" listing. I know this means the files "cannot be
deleted they are being used by another person or program...."

Since the network works properly in SafeMode, there has to be a Microsoft
Service causing this problem - that's all that is left. Once again, in SafeMode,
I can place a file in the DT share, access it using the LT, and DELETE it from
the DT (I can even delete it using the LT).

Going back to normal mode, no dice!

Thanks again but it looks like I need more help.

Fred
 
Lol... that figures...

Well you could...

Sorry for the late reply, I was away from the computer yesterday.

You still know there is a needle in a haystack out there somewhere. The
bottom line is that everything works as advertised in safemode which means
the parts that have to work are in fact working. There is some peripheral
item muddying the waters and we can't find it. We know something is wrong
with the desktop computer which is at least some progress. I would try the
following...

1. Boot to the login screen on the desktop computer, if no login screen, set
a password or add a second account. Leave the computer at the login screen
and then try to access the shares from the desktop, test the problem from
the laptop. This is a simple test that will make sure there is no user
specific settings or software that is causing the problem. As an
alternative to the above steps you can setup a second user account, log into
this account, then test the problem again. This probably won't shed any
light on anything but it is a simple test and sometimes it works.

When you booted into safemode w/ networking support you might have noticed a
new account show up that you didn't have access to before... that would be
Administrator... do you boot into this one or use your normal account?
Remember that Administrator has different settings and different registry
keys for some areas. This would be another reason to do the above test.

2. Just for kicks you could try setting up the network with Netbeui or
IPX/SPX as I explained in an earlier response. If sharing works with a
different protocol that might add some info to our arsenal (or lack
thereof).

3. You could try disabling the Microsft services but be careful, some
services you really don't want to disable and there are a ton of items in
this list. I wouldn't do this except as a last resort.

This is tricky as I said before, I will have to think about this one a
little. In the meantime you can try the above, I would deffinately try a
different user.

Good luck!

John
 
LOL,

I didn't even notice that thread! Good job, sounds like Ken knows his
stuff, he guessed the problem right away. I don't even use AV software
myself. Anyways, glad you found the problem.
 
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