All who think SP2 is SOOOO great,

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JIM, I am sorry to here that you lost some email but, had
you actually followed the instruction for installing sp2
you would not have this problem.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/sp2_whattoknow.mspx

pay paticular note to: "Before You Download SP2":

7. Perform a full backup of all your files.

and

9. Close all open programs.(this includes Antivirus,
firewalls, messengers, any program that is running in the
background that are not part of the OS)

so stop crying about the service pack and learn how to use
it.


PS. if your DBX files are not on the drive then they are
most likley GONE.

OLEXP: Mail Folders, Address Book, and E-mail Messages Are
Missing After You Upgrade to Microsoft Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-
us;313055

All the Best.
 
7. Perform a full backup of all your files.

And just to make sure it's clear: System restore doesn't
count as a full backup of your files. (Even if Jim had
it running which was another problem.)
 
I've got news for you Jim. I've had three updates that
have crashed my computer. (Though never a service pack.)

ALWAYS backup before installing ANYTHING. ALWAYS backup
anything important. These are the most basic rules of
using any computer. Not backing up is like not fastening
your seatbelt or jumping out of a plane without a
parachute.

Software goes wrong, disks crash, users make mistakes,
computers get stolen or hacked.

BACKUP ANYTHING IMPORTANT!!!!!!
don't want to know how our TV works either.

I'll bet you know that you shouldn't stick your tongue
inside it. Backing up your data is about the same as
that.
 
In my opinion, SP2 is a great upgrade.

However, also in my opinion, Microsoft was too confident (incorrectly,
as it turned out) that virtually no users would have any major problems
with it.

In Microsoft's defense, the amount of testing that they did was
unprecedented, and I don't think that there is anything more that they
could have done to have made this release more "problem free". Part of
the "problem" is that the user base is not "techies", and doesn't even
know what a BIOS, Prescott or Firewall are, much less how to use any of
them.

The lesson here is that you just can't release an upgrade of this
magnitude which is going to be so problem free for everyone that you
should go out and tell the entire world to just turn on automatic
updates and get it automatically. Hopefully, this is a lesson that MS
has now leared as well.
 
The information I posted earlier was avaliable a month
before the service pack was released. (if not longer)

In reply to your wanting your TV to work

You don't have to know how to read to use a TV.
 
Jim said:
"anonymous" I get asked to install updates all the time. this is the
only one that screwed up my system. If there were all types of
"procedures" that needed adhering to for SP2, Microsoft should have
given a tad more notice. No offense, but we users don't have time to
be computer geeks. We don't want to know how our TV works either.
We just want it to work!


And indeed it does. MS makes no allowance for PEBCAK errors. I backed up,
patched my software, updated drivers, defragged, scanned for viruses and
spy/malware and - guess what?! - zero problems.

If you fail to prepare - prepare to fail.

Funny that...

Another couple of points.

1) System Restore does *NOT* switch itself of. You must have turned it
off and forgotten to turn it back on.

2) System restore has no effect on personal files. It backs up and
restores system files only. Data files are *NOT* recorded. SR is *NOT* a
back up application and should not be treated as such. If you want to back
up your system (and I do weekly) then I suggest you purchase an imaging
application. Drive Image 7 was my application of choice but, when Symantec
bought PowerQuest they discontinued it. I have heard good things about Ghost
9, though I haven't used it myself.
 
"Miss Perspicacia Tick" and "Anonimous"

Do you also overhaul your car's engine everytime you get a new tank of gas?
Geez, you computer people crack me up! I'm supposed to get 75 CD's and
backup my 60 gig HD, defrag, update all software, paint my house, resod my
lawn, etc, every time Microsoft sends an update? GET REAL!
 
-----Original Message-----
"Miss Perspicacia Tick" and "Anonimous"

Do you also overhaul your car's engine everytime you get
a new tank of gas?

No and I don't overhaul my computer when new electrons go
into it either. I do however, wear my seatbelt, keep my
tires properly inflated, keep my coolant and oil levels
appropriate, rotate my tires, check my transmission and
break fluid etc.

I also balance my checkbook, clean my gutters, dust, take
out the trash and backup my computer.
Geez, you computer people crack me up!

If your data isn't important then why did you complain
when you thought you had lost it?

If you want to treat your computer like a TV, go ahead.
But don't be surprised when your computer does as good a
job at saving your data as your TV does at saving your
shows.

75 CDs? You have that much email? Please at least drag
yourself into the 1990s and use DVDs. Consider backing
up to other disks as well. I can do a full image of my
system in under 30 minutes with no user interaction. (ie
I watch my TV while my computer backs itself up.)
 
Jim said:
"anonymous" I get asked to install updates all the time. this is the only
one that screwed up my system. If there were all types of "procedures"
that
needed adhering to for SP2, Microsoft should have given a tad more notice.
No offense, but we users don't have time to be computer geeks. We don't
want
to know how our TV works either. We just want it to work!

You've been told for years to make backups. You don't get to decide
which procedure requires a backup because you are ignorant of the
facts to make such a decision. MS has been telling people to make
backups since win95 at least. You knew it and you ignored establish
routine maintenance procedure.

Which means I don't know how to fix a carburator but that doesn't
excuse me from checking the air pressure for tires and fluid levels
which is part of routine maintenance.

There is a big difference between being a geek and being computer
literate and computer literacy is needed to install a Service Pack.
You seem to have some expectations of how well computers function
which ignores reality. Your fantasy about how computers should
work won't come nearly true for thousands of years. You are computer
illiterate and too arrogant to read the instructions. Maybe you are still
a teenager who hasn't grown up yet, of course maybe you are just an
alcoholic adult whose emotional immaturity demands blaming others
for the problems you bring on yourself. I had that painful experience.

Are you aware that you sound like a kid or some kind of addict?
 
Barry Watzman said:
In my opinion, SP2 is a great upgrade.

However, also in my opinion, Microsoft was too confident (incorrectly, as
it turned out) that virtually no users would have any major problems with
it.

A recent survey of 44,000 SP2 ugrades showed 90% had no problems.
That percentage is not equal to "virtually no users would have any major
problems with it." However, I never saw a claim made by Microsoft that
virtually no user would have major problems. Do you have a reference
for your wording from a Microsoft source? I can't believe they said anything
that stupid, but I suppose it is possible... computer just don't work that
way.
In Microsoft's defense, the amount of testing that they did was
unprecedented, and I don't think that there is anything more that they
could have done to have made this release more "problem free". Part of
the "problem" is that the user base is not "techies", and doesn't even
know what a BIOS, Prescott or Firewall are, much less how to use any of
them.

No they are not techies. But I don't think they need to be techies, just
computer literate. Backups are not difficult, and I think computer literacy
is enough to make a backup. So again I disagree with a position that you
use (the other description is "virtually"). The "problem" is that though 99%
of users have heard advice stressing making backups maybe 10% practice
making backups. They have the 'can't be bothered attitude' or the 'it will
never happen to me' superiority complex. I don't think it is Microsoft's
fault or responsibility that people have to learn the hard way.
The lesson here is that you just can't release an upgrade of this
magnitude which is going to be so problem free for everyone that you
should go out and tell the entire world to just turn on automatic updates
and get it automatically. Hopefully, this is a lesson that MS has now
leared as well.

Again, I think there is a problem with this conclusion. In your words:
In my opinion, SP2 is a great upgrade.

I think that means it should be released. Now by what method? What
is the alternative method that eliminates the upgrade from reaching
the hands of people who don't make backups (so that they can fix
any resulting problems) or discriminates their level of computer
expertise. Should they fill out a questionaire in order to qualify?

I think automatic updates is as good as making a large download
or ordering a cd. Yes, a few people have automatically download
and install updates enabled. And if that were not enabled they might
choose not to install SP2; they might decide well I don't have a backup
and I'm a computer dummy so I better hire somebody or just do without.
But any update has the potential of causing a problem on a computer.
So that means all the beneficial updates will not get installed (if you
turn off automatic download and install) by all people who don't know
enough to login into Microsoft and check for updates. There is always
going to be a gap in whatever release method is chosen.

Computers have not evolved to the state where the users do not have to
take responsibility for how the computer is used. If a user knows that
they have not made a backup (and very few users are unaware that they
ought to have a backup) and they are not very competent with using a
computer, then they can hire somebody or turn off automatic updates.

I think it would be a ghastly moral mistake to deprive some users from
this upgrade in order to protect some users like Jim, who exactly deserves
his problem. The "problem" really is that he has no backup of important
email, not that there is an inconvenience of the SP2 installation procedure.
No upgrade can ever be created which will install correctly on all
computers.
So I don't see anything wrong with the MS approch to the best practical
result. It is a common thing in life that there are no rules available to
find
a perfect way of taking census in order to apportion government seats
by population. Neither the census nor the apportioning method.

I mean do you think MS should learn the lesson to turn off all automatic
updates? SP2 is just a collection of updates. Which ones should not
be made available for public distribution? Many of the SP2 updates
were released prior to SP2. There is no possible way of predicting
which update will cause a problem on which user machine. That is a
mathematical principle. Since you might think I am overstating the
case I will provide a reference (also since I asked for one from you).
http://www.cis.udel.edu/~case/colt.html

I notice you did not provide an alternative solution.

Much of this is associated with game theory,
Stephen
 
A recent survey of 44,000 SP2 ugrades showed 90% had no problems.

Excuse me, but wasn't that the same survey where they looked at the
machines and 10% of them had one or more of the files on the
"potential problem software list"?

That really has very little to do with whether randomly selected
people doing upgrades have problems or not. Many folks here have
claimed they don't have any of those items and have had problems.
Other claim to have some of those items and don't have problems.

I'd DEARLY love to see the results of a phone poll of 10,000 randomly
selected individuals who downloaded SP2 and ask how many of them
saw a problem when they did this. And as someone previously pointed
out, just because you haven't seen a problem often doesn't say much,
you may only exercise a few percent of all the stuff installed
there, or maybe only exercise a small part of it immediately after
doing SP2.

But, if you have the source of 44,000 randomly selected individuals
who really did the upgrade and then reported whether they had
problems or not I'd REALLY like to see the raw data.

(And if 10% of the 50 million pc's in the country got whacked with
a problem think what your 5 million customers think of you about now)

Thank you
That percentage is not equal to "virtually no users would have any major
problems with it." However, I never saw a claim made by Microsoft that
virtually no user would have major problems. Do you have a reference
for your wording from a Microsoft source? I can't believe they said anything
that stupid, but I suppose it is possible... computer just don't work that
way.
No they are not techies. But I don't think they need to be techies, just
computer literate. Backups are not difficult, and I think computer literacy
is enough to make a backup. So again I disagree with a position that you
use (the other description is "virtually"). The "problem" is that though 99%
of users have heard advice stressing making backups maybe 10% practice
making backups. They have the 'can't be bothered attitude' or the 'it will
never happen to me' superiority complex. I don't think it is Microsoft's
fault or responsibility that people have to learn the hard way.
Again, I think there is a problem with this conclusion. In your words:
I think that means it should be released. Now by what method? What
is the alternative method that eliminates the upgrade from reaching
the hands of people who don't make backups (so that they can fix
any resulting problems) or discriminates their level of computer
expertise. Should they fill out a questionaire in order to qualify?
I think automatic updates is as good as making a large download
or ordering a cd. Yes, a few people have automatically download
and install updates enabled. And if that were not enabled they might
choose not to install SP2; they might decide well I don't have a backup
and I'm a computer dummy so I better hire somebody or just do without.
But any update has the potential of causing a problem on a computer.
So that means all the beneficial updates will not get installed (if you
turn off automatic download and install) by all people who don't know
enough to login into Microsoft and check for updates. There is always
going to be a gap in whatever release method is chosen.
Computers have not evolved to the state where the users do not have to
take responsibility for how the computer is used. If a user knows that
they have not made a backup (and very few users are unaware that they
ought to have a backup) and they are not very competent with using a
computer, then they can hire somebody or turn off automatic updates.
I think it would be a ghastly moral mistake to deprive some users from
this upgrade in order to protect some users like Jim, who exactly deserves
his problem. The "problem" really is that he has no backup of important
email, not that there is an inconvenience of the SP2 installation procedure.
No upgrade can ever be created which will install correctly on all
computers.
So I don't see anything wrong with the MS approch to the best practical
result. It is a common thing in life that there are no rules available to
find
a perfect way of taking census in order to apportion government seats
by population. Neither the census nor the apportioning method.
I mean do you think MS should learn the lesson to turn off all automatic
updates? SP2 is just a collection of updates. Which ones should not
be made available for public distribution? Many of the SP2 updates
were released prior to SP2. There is no possible way of predicting
which update will cause a problem on which user machine. That is a
mathematical principle. Since you might think I am overstating the
case I will provide a reference (also since I asked for one from you).
http://www.cis.udel.edu/~case/colt.html
 
-----Original Message-----
you guys have got it all figured out, don't you? hehe

You're never too old to learn. My mother is 71 and she
makes full backups.

Three years ago all of her mailing buddies got a nasty
virus before the AV vendors got new definitions out (she
just uses her PC for "fun stuff" which includes emailing
megabyte executable jokes.) Her friends took their
computers to shops to get them repaired and lost all
their data. Mom did a restore and was back on-line in an
hour with only the last few virus-laden "fun" emails
missing. Some of mom's friends are backing up now too.

You've had your first warning from your email scare. The
question is whether you'll learn from it. I suspect
you're thinking about protecting your data in the future
even though you're trying to appear cavalier about it.
At least I hope so. If not, I'll see you on your next
disaster.
 
Jim said:
"Miss Perspicacia Tick" and "Anonimous"

Do you also overhaul your car's engine everytime you get a new tank
of gas? Geez, you computer people crack me up! I'm supposed to get
75 CD's and backup my 60 gig HD, defrag, update all software, paint
my house, resod my lawn, etc, every time Microsoft sends an update?
GET REAL!


Erm, you're the one who needs to "get real". I don't back up on CDs. I have
an external hard drive that takes an image once a week. If you don't want to
perform ESM (that's Essential System Mainenance) before installing a major
OS update, please go and whine somewhere else - we don't want you, we don't
need you and, indeed, we don't like your type around here!

As I said before - if you fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Now, do toddle off, the Kindergarten's that way.
 
Jim said:
"anonymous" I get asked to install updates all the time. this is the only
one that screwed up my system. If there were all types of "procedures" that
needed adhering to for SP2, Microsoft should have given a tad more notice.
No offense, but we users don't have time to be computer geeks. We don't want
to know how our TV works either. We just want it to work!

Well your system was working prior to installing SP2. Why install something
you know nothing about when your system was fully functional?
 
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