A suggestion for next month's Malicious Software Removal download

  • Thread starter Thread starter Don Taylor
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Don Taylor

Why doesn't Microsoft make next month's Malicious Software Removal
download exterminate some or most of the 'bots' that have taken
over the world's DSL connected machines that are owned by people
who haven't a clue what security is?

It doesn't seem like rocket science for them to go capture a few
of these machines, determine which bots they have, drop the code
into the monthly update to sterilize these, and then advertise the
hell out of this AND have it announce when it was done if it had
actually found and fixed this for the customer.

And every time a new infection grabbed the headlines they could
announce that they were on top of this.

Talk about finally a Windows Genuine Advantage?!?! That would be
it.
 
PA Bear said:
The MSRT's doing a helluva job IMHO.

Really. Here are just two examples of folks saying that THE
problem is MILLIONS of security hole Windows boxes flushing
the spam and fraud toilet at the net as fast as their little
DSL connection will go.

Read
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/securi..._botnet_invasion/0,2000061744,39257307,00.htm
ISPs accused of ignoring botnet invasion

By Munir Kotadia, ZDNet Australia
24 May 2006 03:11 PM

Internet Service Providers are in the perfect position to kill vast
armies of compromised computers -- or bots -- that are being used
by cyber-criminals to launch the majority of spam and phishing
attacks, according security specialists at the AusCERT 2006 conference.

Botnets are vast groups of Windows-based PCs that have been infected
with a Trojan or virus that allows the computer to be illicitly
controlled from a remote location. Bot armies comprising of between
10,000 and 100,000 bots are openly advertised for hire on newsgroups
located in the darker corners of the Internet.

The majority of these bots are home computers that are connected
to the Internet over a broadband link such as ADSL or Cable, which
means all the malicious traffic initially passes through the network
of each individual bots' ISP.

Or

http://www.cotse.com/20050717.html
It's time ISP's were held accountable!

The biggest threat on the Internet, by far, are the millions of
end user machines infected by a virus/trojan. It's the end result
of someone clicking an attachment/running an infected file/not
applying the most recent security patch and effectively giving their
computer over to someone who is going to use it for nefarious
purposes.

That person first copies all useable personal information off that
computer (credit cards, accounts and passwords, etc.), then turns
it into a Zombie (a machine waiting to be controlled). These Zombie
machines are the individual units of much larger bot nets and they
are attacking in greater numbers than ever before.

Some of these bot nets are numbering hundreds of thousands of
machines and quite possibly might be nearing a million. A bot net
is controlled as a single computer. It's easily the worlds largest
multiprocessor server and time is sold on it at a premium."



Now how is it again that this thing that supposedly removes
malicious software from Windows computers doing a fine job?

How many hundred of the pump-n-dump stock swindle spam
are you reporting to abuse addresses every month since this
broke out a few months ago? There appears to be no sign
that this is even slowing down, even after I report a few
hundred of these each to Comcast and Verizon and SWBell and...
Every one of those is flushing out of a compromised DSL XP toilet.
 
Top-posting corrected:

So How Did I Get Infected Anyway?

Most people run Windows (and IE) the way it comes right out of the
box,i.e., they are using the default settings from Microsoft.

IOW, I don't think you addressed the issue being raised here. The fact
that Microsoft is making an overwhelming contribution to the problem
would seem to indicate that Microsoft has a responsibility to help
eradicate the problem.

rl
 
Rhonda said:
Top-posting corrected:




Most people run Windows (and IE) the way it comes right out of the
box,i.e., they are using the default settings from Microsoft.

IOW, I don't think you addressed the issue being raised here. The fact
that Microsoft is making an overwhelming contribution to the problem
would seem to indicate that Microsoft has a responsibility to help
eradicate the problem.

rl

A very correct first observation about the environment in
which most people use their computers (with all of the nice
connectivity gadgets such as Wireless, Bluetooth, etc.) and
not know how to be protected in their use.

OTOH, second paragraph is somewhat overstated. The residents
on the Redmond, WA campus, i.e., the programmers, have their
heads stuck in the sand of their perfect world and have not
realized the avenues they have created for white hat and black
hat hackers to experiment or to exercise cyber-terror. It is
difficult to eradicate a problem when it is not recognized
until someone points it out. So much for the perfectionism of
programmers.
 
Top-posting corrected:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...A9-645D-4495-9EDA-92CDE33E99A9&displaylang=en



Most people run Windows (and IE) the way it comes right out of the
box,i.e., they are using the default settings from Microsoft.

IOW, I don't think you addressed the issue being raised here. The fact
that Microsoft is making an overwhelming contribution to the problem
would seem to indicate that Microsoft has a responsibility to help
eradicate the problem.

rl

Indeed it has that responsibility. The ONLY way MickeyMouse can correct this
situation is to rewrite its "operating system" from the ground up.
Historically its releases have been a patch quilt of old source code from
previous releases. Today, its o/s is kludged together with millions upon
millions of lines of source code - much of which goes back to a time before
Bill Gate$ learned the Internet existed. A facelift like Fista WILL NOT
solve the problem. Monthly patches WILL NOT solve the problem. The world's
wealthiest software developer needs to get off its fat a$$ and conjure up a
completely new paradigm in its "operating system".

Until that time, Windoze computers should not be allowed to access the
Internet. The fact that it is pre-loaded on 90% of the world's computers
and out of the box is so wide open to abuse places the responsibility
directly on MickeyMouse's shoulders as you stated. Windoze users should use
their computers to run applications that don't need to access the Net. For
the times they want Net access, they should be running a real operating
system such as GNU/Linux or BSD or Solaris, etc. until such time as
MickeyMouse can put out a product that is safe for the Net.

--
The ULTIMATE Windoze Fanboy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2370205018226686613

View Some Common Linux Desktops ...
http://linclips.crocusplains.com/index.php
 
NoStop said:
Indeed it has that responsibility. The ONLY way MickeyMouse can correct this
situation is to rewrite its "operating system" from the ground up.
Historically its releases have been a patch quilt of old source code from
previous releases. Today, its o/s is kludged together with millions upon
millions of lines of source code - much of which goes back to a time before
Bill Gate$ learned the Internet existed. A facelift like Fista WILL NOT
solve the problem. Monthly patches WILL NOT solve the problem. The world's
wealthiest software developer needs to get off its fat a$$ and conjure up a
completely new paradigm in its "operating system".

Until that time, Windoze computers should not be allowed to access the
Internet. The fact that it is pre-loaded on 90% of the world's computers
and out of the box is so wide open to abuse places the responsibility
directly on MickeyMouse's shoulders as you stated. Windoze users should use
their computers to run applications that don't need to access the Net. For
the times they want Net access, they should be running a real operating
system such as GNU/Linux or BSD or Solaris, etc. until such time as
MickeyMouse can put out a product that is safe for the Net.

I've used Windows on the Net since 97. No problems, no viruses, no
spyware, malware or adware. Soooo, you were saying?

Alias
 
NoStop wrote:

Until that time, Windoze computers should not be allowed to access the
Internet. The fact that it is pre-loaded on 90% of the world's
computers and out of the box is so wide open to abuse places the
responsibility directly on MickeyMouse's shoulders as you stated.
Windoze users should use their computers to run applications that
don't need to access the Net. For the times they want Net access,
they should be running a real operating system such as GNU/Linux or
BSD or Solaris, etc. until such time as MickeyMouse can put out a
product that is safe for the Net.

So, NoStop, when I finally get the energy to convert to Linux
(building, building), are you going to instruct me in detail and help me
fix it when it doesn't work right?

Or am I on my own?

Just checking. I have seen you roundly criticized for Linux
proselytizing in a Windows group, but I've also seen you help people who
need it. So I wondered how far that extends, and this seemed like a good
time to ask.

rl
--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff
 
Don said:
Why doesn't Microsoft make next month's Malicious Software Removal
download exterminate some or most of the 'bots' that have taken
over the world's DSL connected machines that are owned by people
who haven't a clue what security is?

You want Micros~1 to decide the content of your system based on news
articles, or what's in the best interests of the larger computing community?

Why, if they did that, they'd be removing Symantec's stuff, RealPlayer,
Linux, all sorts of things.

Come to think on it...

Never mind.
 
Same old line of BS eh?

NoStop said:
Indeed it has that responsibility. The ONLY way MickeyMouse
can correct this
situation is to rewrite its "operating system" from the ground
up.
Historically its releases have been a patch quilt of old
source code from
previous releases. Today, its o/s is kludged together with
millions upon
millions of lines of source code - much of which goes back to
a time before
Bill Gate$ learned the Internet existed. A facelift like Fista
WILL NOT
solve the problem. Monthly patches WILL NOT solve the problem.
The world's
wealthiest software developer needs to get off its fat a$$ and
conjure up a
completely new paradigm in its "operating system".

Until that time, Windoze computers should not be allowed to
access the
Internet. The fact that it is pre-loaded on 90% of the world's
computers
and out of the box is so wide open to abuse places the
responsibility
directly on MickeyMouse's shoulders as you stated. Windoze
users should use
their computers to run applications that don't need to access
the Net. For
the times they want Net access, they should be running a real
operating
system such as GNU/Linux or BSD or Solaris, etc. until such
time as
MickeyMouse can put out a product that is safe for the Net.

--
The ULTIMATE Windoze Fanboy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2370205018226686613

View Some Common Linux Desktops ...
http://linclips.crocusplains.com/index.php
 
NoStop wrote:



So, NoStop, when I finally get the energy to convert to Linux
(building, building), are you going to instruct me in detail and help me
fix it when it doesn't work right?

Or am I on my own?

Just checking. I have seen you roundly criticized for Linux
proselytizing in a Windows group, but I've also seen you help people who
need it. So I wondered how far that extends, and this seemed like a good
time to ask.

rl
Rhonda,

Obviously, I cannot offer this assistance in a windowsxp newsgroup. There
are other ng's devoted to different Linux distros. I hangout at this forum
(one of many) that will offer you plenty of assistance with over a quarter
of million registered users :-) ...

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/index.php

Best of luck upgrading to a real operating system. You seem to be savy
enough about computers to make the "leap" without too much difficulty. May
I suggest you start off with windoze-user-friendly distro like Suse or
Mandriva running KDE. The latter being probably the easiest for a new Linux
user with plenty of Windoze experience.


--
The ULTIMATE Windoze Fanboy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2370205018226686613

View Some Common Linux Desktops ...
http://linclips.crocusplains.com/index.php
 
I've used Windows on the Net since 97. No problems, no viruses, no
spyware, malware or adware. Soooo, you were saying?

Alias
Alias,

You're obvious proficient so I wasn't addressing people like you. What I
said was that out of the box, as packaged with new computers and sold to
newbies, Windoze is dangerous for the Net. Hence the number of hijacked
Windoze computers out there running bots that fill the net with spam and
other problems.

--
The ULTIMATE Windoze Fanboy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2370205018226686613

View Some Common Linux Desktops ...
http://linclips.crocusplains.com/index.php
 
NoStop said:
Alias,

You're obvious proficient so I wasn't addressing people like you. What I
said was that out of the box, as packaged with new computers and sold to
newbies, Windoze is dangerous for the Net. Hence the number of hijacked
Windoze computers out there running bots that fill the net with spam and
other problems.

And a Linux, preinstalled, out of the box would be better for newbies is
your contention or should people need a license to use a computer and
need to pay for a course on computing before purchasing one? I'm afraid
the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Alias
 
Alias wrote:

And a Linux, preinstalled, out of the box would be better for newbies is
your contention or should people need a license to use a computer and
need to pay for a course on computing before purchasing one? I'm afraid
the cat is out of the bag on that one.

I've always maintained that any new computer purchase should also include a
10 minute lesson on basic net security - after all, the salesman spends a
lot longer than that trying to persuade the buyer to take out an extended
warranty.... ;-)
 
And a Linux, preinstalled, out of the box would be better for newbies
is your contention or should people need a license to use a computer
and need to pay for a course on computing before purchasing one? I'm
afraid the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Alias,

I'm not so sure that Windows out of the box is so easy for newbies
either.

It's hard for me to tell because my computer use dates (for all
practical purposes) to a dual 8" floppy drive system running CP/M, but
it seems to me--from observing friends of mine--that they will limp
along with a badly working computer and not really seek help until the
damn thing dies.

And having fiddled with this laptop since January, I am here to say it
did not work right straight out of the box. If I didn't know at least a
little bit, instead of being here bitching about WGA, I'd be on the line
to tech support complaining about any one of a hundred things I've had
to repair, patch, tweak, whatever. Just today, I decided to get rid of
some more Dell crap (QuikSet, which I don't use and don't need), and lo
and behold, there went my volume control. So I reinstalled it, no
problem. But I'll tell you--if my old friend Fran had checked the little
box to show the volume icon in the task bar and gotten the message I
did, she'd still be mucking around in "Add and Remove Programs" trying
to figure out how to get it installed--because that's where the error
message tells you to go.

Speaking of Fran, when she bought her computer, I spent quite a few
hours making it work right. And my former roommate--now there's a story.
I cleaned up her computer, and I set her up with the basics--a working
antivirus program (free, because the reason she didn't have one is that
she didn't want to renew Norton for $14.95), Spybot and Adaware. Then I
moved out. A year later, I checked, and the antivirus program had
"broken" and she had never--not once--run either antispyware program.
She was also running Weatherbug, Kazaa, and several other pieces of
loaded software that she had downloaded, but she didn't associate the
crummy performance with the crap she had on the computer. I was days
cleaning it up, and you can bet that she hasn't done any maintenance
since. I'm also quite sure that she has download a ton more spyware.

Should people like that even be on the internet? Maybe if they had to
struggle a little to get there, they'd be more conscious of their
overall effect on the rest of us.

Out of the home computer realm, at my various places of employment,
starting with...well, I guess we went straight from DOS to 3.1, there
was always something to fix all the way through 95, 98 and ME.

The day one of my bosses decided to buy me a Mac was a day of much
rejoicing. I admit to a little time spent getting the Unix shell account
set up so that I could get online, but other than that, the most I ever
*had* to do was rebuild the desktop. I should never have quit that job.

I don't know the first thing about Linux, but as much of a pain as
Windows is if you want it to work right, it can't be that hard.

rl
--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff
 
You want Micros~1 to decide the content of your system based on news
articles, or what's in the best interests of the larger computing community?

Yes I want them to use their monthly download that claims to remove
malicious software to actually remove the month's most malicious software.

Why, if they did that, they'd be removing Symantec's stuff, RealPlayer,
Linux, all sorts of things.

Which one of those is flushing the fraud and spam toilet at the world?
I'm very confused.
 
I'll top-post if I want to, TYVM.

Pray tell why MS should be responsible for what a Windows user does with
his/her machine?

If you drove drunk & crashed your Chevy, should GM be held responsible for
it?
 
....
Alias,

I'm not so sure that Windows out of the box is so easy for
newbies either.

It's hard for me to tell because my computer use dates (for
all practical purposes) to a dual 8" floppy drive system
running CP/M, but it seems to me--from observing friends of
mine--that they will limp along with a badly working
computer and not really seek help until the damn thing dies.

Different experience here! Maybe it's the class of people<g>.
The real problem comes when they don't notice a problem and
attribute it to something they caused, which they usually did,
but which is a case of ignorance, not a refusal to seek
assistance. The real problem comes when the problems aren't
quickly noticed; then there's more digging to do to help them
out. IME, they're reasonable quick to react as soon as they
notice a problem.
And having fiddled with this laptop since January, I am
here to say it did not work right straight out of the box.

If you've had to fiddle with it since January to get it working
right, there's something wrong; it may well be your opinion of
what working "right" is, not that they don't work. Or, you're
getting them "out of the box" from joe scammer down the street!

....Just today, I decided to
get rid of some more Dell crap (QuikSet, which I don't use
and don't need), and lo and behold, there went my volume
control.

That has zero to do with working out of the box; you removed
things DELL placed there, and sufferend the consequences of not
first knowing what you were removing. Your volume control was
simply not displayed any longer, not damaged. These kind of
things are why I avoid DELL. That, and the fact they only
provide OEM versions of the software, which is useless, or nearly
so, once they get through adding their mods to the operating
system.

So I reinstalled it, no problem.

You didn't have to reinstall it; only tick the box to redisplay
it. A little research might be inorder for you.

But I'll tell
you--if my old friend Fran had checked the little box to
show the volume icon in the task bar and gotten the message
I did, she'd still be mucking around in "Add and Remove
Programs" trying to figure out how to get it
installed--because that's where the error message tells you
to go.

The volume control doesn't, or shouldn't, display in the task
bar; it displays in the system tray.
What was the error message that would send her to add/remove
for this? What produced it?
Speaking of Fran, when she bought her computer, I spent
quite a few hours making it work right.

Sounds like that was her first mistake. Rather than setting up
protection for her, and educating her, you went in an adjusted
nuts & bolts all over the place on her, probably making any
instructions she had null & void in the process. Good way to
confuse a newbie.

And my former
roommate--now there's a story. I cleaned up her computer,
and I set her up with the basics--a working antivirus
program (free, because the reason she didn't have one is
that she didn't want to renew Norton for $14.95), Spybot
and Adaware. Then I moved out. A year later, I checked, and
the antivirus program had "broken" and she had never--not
once--run either antispyware program. She was also running
Weatherbug, Kazaa, and several other pieces of loaded
software that she had downloaded, but she didn't associate
the crummy performance with the crap she had on the
computer.

Why? Lack of education? Lack of instructions she could refer
to? It almost sounds like you set her up to fail, though you may
not have meant to. There are people who won't listen, and who
need to be told things in certain ways, and others who aren't
going to learn no matter what, but ... they are much the minority
in my experience. The problem is not knowing where to turn for
help, or even when to, for most people that get into deep trouble
such as that. It almost sounds like you left her without benefit
of a firewall, antivirus and spyware tools, but did plenty to
make the computer look and feel as you wanted it to. You never
mentioned the word "updated" in all that, so I assume that's not
anything you explained much either, right?

I was days cleaning it up, and you can bet that
she hasn't done any maintenance since. I'm also quite sure
that she has download a ton more spyware.

Well, you get to go back and play the hero again that way. A
better way is to educate and demonstrate why the education pays
off. Ignorance is 99% of the problem with newbies, many of whom
don't even know what questions to ask initially.
Should people like that even be on the internet? Maybe if
they had to struggle a little to get there, they'd be more
conscious of their overall effect on the rest of us.

And maybe not. Maybe, without them, the 'net would be a much
cleaner, less hostile place, but then, the lack of related sales,
etc., would also drive the price of your valuable hardware and
software sky high instead of being as low priced, even free in
many instances, as it is today. There's an ecology at work here.
Out of the home computer realm, at my various places of
employment, starting with...well, I guess we went straight
from DOS to 3.1, there was always something to fix all the
way through 95, 98 and ME.

Also in CP/M, and even DOS, regardless of the vintage and who
made it. You either didn't notice or are choosing to forget a
lot of details, or had little actual contact with them. Without
a GUI for many years, there were a lot less complexities to
create problems, and they were easier to trace "back then".
That's when people weren't afraid to write code in machine
language and the authors actually understood what the code they
wrote was doing.
The day one of my bosses decided to buy me a Mac was a day
of much rejoicing.

I have to wonder why: MACs were/are good with graphics. But as
workhorses with real power, no, they couldn't keep up. I still
think there's a good place for MACs in the environment, but that
would not change an iota of detail in the things you want to
point out. If MAC has the market that MS does, you'd have
exactly the same kind of problems going on that MS has. Because
it was a MAC wouldn't make any difference to the newbies using
them. And doesn't, by the way, except that they don't have the
market share to be as large a target as MS users are. But
reverse the situation, and ...

I admit to a little time spent getting
the Unix shell account set up so that I could get online,
but other than that, the most I ever *had* to do was
rebuild the desktop. I should never have quit that job.
I don't know the first thing about Linux, but as much of a
pain as Windows is if you want it to work right, it can't
be that hard.

Let me get this straight: You know UNIX, but not LINUX? lol,
you don't really know much about either, do you? I'm sorry, but
that blows you right out of the water and explains fully to me
why the gal you helped out ran into so much trouble.

Pop
 
PA said:
I'll top-post if I want to, TYVM.

You're quite welcome...to do whatever is convenient for you, no matter
how inconvenient it is for anyone else. That's the beauty of the
internet--you can do whatever you want. Mostly. Unless you want to be
thought of in ways that most people don't want to be thought of.

So while you're top-posting, I'll either be correcting the top-posting,
so that the context makes sense, or deleting the entire text beneath
your post, because it's just too much work, and I don't really care if
you make sense or not. said:
Pray tell why MS should be responsible for what a Windows user does
with his/her machine?

Corporate responsibility comes to mind.
If you drove drunk & crashed your Chevy, should GM be held
responsible for it?

The last time I looked (in Florida, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, at
least, although I think the rest of the states have similar
requirements), to buy a car, one needs to possess a valid drivers
license and insurance to even get that car off the lot.

And if *you* drive drunk and crash your Chevy, you will lose your
license, so you won't be driving at all. I don't drink more than the
equivalent of a six-pack a year (or less), so you won't see me out there
weaving down the highway, any more than you will see me with a zombied
machine spewing spam across the internet.

To make your analogy a little more workable, you can bet that if GM
begins to sell cars direct or continues to sell wholesale to a car
dealer that does not follow the rules with respect to such
sales--thereby damaging the innocent--GM will be held accountable.

Microsoft has loosed the hoi polloi onto the net in much the same way as
AOL did--with a total lack of regard for anyone else. It's time it
cleaned up some of the mess it has made.

rl
--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff
 
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