Opinions - Update or Not?

O

On The Pike

Greetings all,

After having reformatted the drive, and installing a fresh copy of Windows
XP SP1, the question arises whether or not to accept the lengthy list of
updates available from the Microsoft website. In my earlier configuration, I
had downloaded every available update short of the .NET Framework patch.
Slowly, but surely, my machine slowed to a crawl over the course of
downloading these updates. Now, with a fresh install, and super-speedy
boot-ups and application starts, I question whether these updates should be
installed at all.

I contacted the manufacturer of my PC, and they advised against downloading
ANY of the updates!

My questions to the group are:

1- Is it really necessary to download these updates?
2- Are there any particular updates I should download as opposed to any
others which may not be as important?
3- Pros/Cons?

I am the only user of this PC and connect via broadband. Thanks for any and
all comments/suggestions.

Jeff
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

Your manufacturer "advised against downloading ANY of the updates"?
Are you sure.
Perhaps it was a bad or misinformed tech.

That does not reflect the policy of any of the major manufacturers,
nor does it likely reflect any reputable dealer of any size.
Many of the updates are Critical to the safety and security of the
computer.
Call back and get a second opinion.
Since such a broad deviation from necessary secure practices, the tech
should have no trouble referring you to an authoritative link on their
website that says the same thing.
If the tech can not cite the authority, ask for a supervisor and
complain about the techs willingness to put your computer at risk.

Otherwise generally all Critical Updates should be installed.
Check to see if Recommended Updates apply.
Get Drivers directly from the manufacturer and not Windows Update.
 
S

Sparticus2

1) Wow, you sure are going to be busy reading replies, considering your
crossposting.

2) Read the technical description of so called critical updates, many will not
apply to your setup.
Why load those that do not apply...such as the server updates (if you are not
serving)?


After having reformatted the drive, and installing a fresh copy of Windows
XP SP1, the question arises whether or not to accept the lengthy list of
updates available from the Microsoft website.
I contacted the manufacturer of my PC, and they advised against downloading
ANY of the updates! 1- Is it really necessary to download these updates?
Jeff
 
O

On The Pike

Yes, I cross-posted to a few groups hoping to gain a maximum response from
not only experts, but from other users alike.

My machine seems to be running so much more reliably without the plethora of
MS downloads, that I'm hesitant to "fix what ain't broke" (as someone said
in another reply - thank you) and somewhat leary since my manufacturer
advises against the updates. As suggested here, I contacted them again and
another rep reiterated the position of the first. For whatever reason, they
don't seem to think the updates are necessary and/or could prove to slow
things down (as was evident before my reformatting).

Thanks again to those who've replied. I'm still teetering on the fence.

Jeff
 
C

Charlie Tame

Actually I waited to see what a few others said and I liked Bob's reply the
best, this one...

1. What is your actual evidence that it was the updates that
slowed your computer down?

2. Living in denial can be very comforting, but ultimately you
pay the price. Just ask NASA.

-- Bob Day


The first point is very valid... you make it sound like you have started
with a fresh install and as you've installed updates (and nothing else)
you've seen this slow down. In fact I suspect the slowdown has happened over
a much longer period than that and whilst you don't appear to be completely
without knowledge (please don't take this the wrong way) there may be
something else you have been unaware of.

A fresh install is probably the best time to install updates, after all your
system should be just as the update regime expects it and not have been
accidentally altered in any way. Did you always turn off your Antivirus
while updating? Did you use the option to keep uninstall info? Have you ever
used other people's "Install" CDs for anything (ISP CDs can be a bit sloppy
etc).

As to updates you "Don't need" be very careful here. Read the descriptions
and if you truly don't need them and are certain you never will need them
consider omitting them. Even if you don't install them MS may put them in
the next service pack anyway. Critical updates should be done. If Ford
recalled your car because a manufacturing defect was found in the wiring to
the lights would you consider driving around in the dark just in case the
flaw manifested itself?

As for the PC maker well, either they still want you to believe they sold
you something 100% perfect and don't want to burst your bubble or else they
are aware of something in the OS they fiddled with they don't want
discovered. One of the reason many supply a "Recovery CD" is because it
formats everything, puts the system back in factory spec and reduced their
tech support load. manufacturers tech support costs money and they don't
make much profit shifting "Boxes" so having you accept losing all your data
has two benefits. First it makes you blame the OS and second it makes you
feel inferior so the problem becomes "Your fault" and not "Theirs".
Essentially they are saying "Look, it's working now isn't it? You're happy
now aren't you? Good, don't call us back". Personally I think they should be
held to task for such advice, after all they are causing trouble for MS here
and I bet that's not in the terms of their license.

As for Bob's second point what can I say, right on. If you do get hacked the
manufacturer will simply say "That's not our perfect hardware, that was a
"Windows" issue so blame MS for that". Ultimately if you have been given the
opportunity to try and fix it for free and haven't, so whose fault is it
really? Ford don't do recalls for "Something to do" and neither do MS, it's
primarily for safety but also reduces their liability.

Just my opinion of course, but since you have just reinstalled you have much
less to lose by trying it to see if you can confirm this slowing down than
you do by putting the machine to work and have it break later. I have
installed numerous copies of W2000, some of which are Advanced server and
because I don't know what the owner is going to need I've more or less had
to install everything available. (Obviously most recent service pack first
since that contains loads of previous stuff which cuts down the workload). I
can't say I've experienced any such slowdowns or other bad effects although
if the install CD is very old they do change a lot of files. I know you have
XP but the comparison is not inaccurate as far as I can see.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Charlie
 
C

Charlie Tame

If you didn't use the makers' install it is possible there is a driver
problem for their specific hardware. It may seem unlikely that this would
affect a web page but I have seen it happen, I also saw some problems with
Java (the virtual machine not the JavaScript language) where two web pages
would instantly reset the machine despite the fact they didn't use Java...
hmm. the cure for that was to remove Sun's Java machine temporarily, yet it
should have had nothing to do with anything if one applies logic.

As to drivers I think you may have to resort to physically looking at the
components in order to establish the "Real" manufacturer or consult the PC
maker's website for driver updates. Video drivers can exhibit some very
weird behaviour which is why they're often overlooked. If all else fails
find the chip manufacturer and find generic ones. Also look at any AGP
drivers from the motherboard manufacturer.

Sorry there doesn't seem to be a simple answer. I think there was clue when
tech support said MS updates cause them trouble... well of course if they
have messed with MS's original OS as Compaq used to do then the updates may
have an effect.

The big problem with declining updates without a complete understanding of
dependencies is that something that seems to have no effect on you may do so
by an unforeseen route. Most of the critical updates are for things which
naturally remain unseen until after you become a victim. The only help you
are likely to get if that happens is being told to reinstall again, and with
some of them that may indeed be the only really safe answer. It certainly
would be for a mission critical server but of course as a home user you
"Don't matter so much"... not my attitude or yours but it is for some <g>

I would suggest looking for the most recent drivers for your hardware (be
aware most recent is not always better) and weigh up the situation again.
Sometimes these out of the box machines will only work properly with the
original setups as per restore cd.

If you decide to play with reinstalling again download a simple free
firewall like ZoneAlarm or Kerio to cover your rear while downloading
updates in case there are any dangerous gaps after re-installing the OS, and
shut off any services that have started automatically and you don't need.
Beware of choosing "Disable" if you do this, one or two will kill the
machine if they can't start. Manual instead of Automatic would do the job.

Start with the most recent service pack and any IE/OE updates like IE6.

Then pick through whatever else is critical or "recommended" for the
Operating system. If all goes well do the same for IE/OE and if you want it
Media Player.

There shouldn't be a whole lot left that you cannot positively decide about.

Don't forget the code red and nimda viruses took advantage of
vulnerabilities and bad default settings to wipe out millions of machines.
In the case of code red I think the appropriate patch had been available for
a year.

Good question you asked wasn't it? <g>

Like you I am always willing to listen to other views so if anyone has
better suggestions or can see any problems I have not seen feel free.

Charlie


On The Pike said:
Charlie Tame said:
Actually I waited to see what a few others said and I liked Bob's reply the
best, this one...

1. What is your actual evidence that it was the updates that
slowed your computer down?

2. Living in denial can be very comforting, but ultimately you
pay the price. Just ask NASA.

See upcoming post.
The first point is very valid... you make it sound like you have started
with a fresh install and as you've installed updates (and nothing else)
you've seen this slow down.

I had started with a fresh install. I always wait one day between
downloading any applications or programs to verify conflict or performance
issues.
In fact I suspect the slowdown has happened over a much longer period
than that

I suppose that is possible. However I would have realized something amiss
upon downloading a program due to my one-per-day policy. Or at least I
should have... and hadn't. Matter of fact, the ONLY items I download as a
group were those MS updates, and those only a few at a time (whichever, at
the time, could be reversed- saving those which cannot be uninstalled for
the very last downloads, and then one per day after exhausting use).
and whilst you don't appear to be completely
without knowledge (please don't take this the wrong way) there may be
something else you have been unaware of.

I do not take your comments, suggestions or correct observations as anything
other than good-faith assistance. And you're correct- I have a very limited
working knowledge based solely on experience and reading these newsgroups.

I encourage any and all commentary and suggestion.
A fresh install is probably the best time to install updates, after all your
system should be just as the update regime expects it and not have been
accidentally altered in any way.

Good point, however because of my discussion with the tech rep, I avoided
them upon the fresh install at his direction.
Did you always turn off your Antivirus while updating?
Always.

Did you use the option to keep uninstall info?

When applicable, yes. Some programs do not package an uninstall program. For
those, I use Add-Remove Pro. For all MS downloads, whichever may be
uninstalled are set to allow uninstall, however, as I'd said earlier, the
only applications I'd downloaded as a group were these MS updates and didn't
know exactly which one (or more) were the culprit.
Have you ever used other people's "Install" CDs for anything (ISP CDs can
be a bit sloppy etc).

Never. I do not use anyone elses files. I do not subscribe to any P2P file
sharing networks (other than WinMX which is adware/spyware free, and only
download .mp3 files) and I do not promote illegal program distribution. I
pay for my programs and do not share my keys.
As to updates you "Don't need" be very careful here. Read the descriptions
and if you truly don't need them and are certain you never will need them
consider omitting them. Even if you don't install them MS may put them in
the next service pack anyway. Critical updates should be done. If Ford
recalled your car because a manufacturing defect was found in the wiring to
the lights would you consider driving around in the dark just in case the
flaw manifested itself?

I see your point and agree with your analogy. Please don't mistake my
discussion for disagreement. I'm simply trying to obtain all opinions
possible, then base my decision upon your knowledge combined with my past
experiences.
As for the PC maker well, either they still want you to believe they sold
you something 100% perfect and don't want to burst your bubble or else they
are aware of something in the OS they fiddled with they don't want
discovered.

Anything is possible, I suppose. Interesting observation. The second rep
offered, "Don't ever download those things", when I questioned. He added,
"They just muck things up". "Bill Gates is very proud of you" he went on to
say, and some such.

{shrug}

One of the reason many supply a "Recovery CD" is because it
formats everything, puts the system back in factory spec and reduced their
tech support load. manufacturers tech support costs money and they don't
make much profit shifting "Boxes" so having you accept losing all your data
has two benefits. First it makes you blame the OS and second it makes you
feel inferior so the problem becomes "Your fault" and not "Theirs".
Essentially they are saying "Look, it's working now isn't it? You're happy
now aren't you? Good, don't call us back".

Excellent point... and one I tend to agree with. I hadn't even thought of
it. When I explained my problem as an error reported from the 'mshtml.dll'
file and asked how I could replace it safely, the suggestion was clean
reformat. Nothing else. Of course, even after the reinstall, I'm still left
with my IE/WE crashing upon visiting one particular site (eudoramail.com).
Would you care to expand some knowledge upon this particular subject? I
haven't a clue.
Personally I think they should be held to task for such advice, after
all
they > are causing trouble for MS here and I bet that's not in the terms of
their
license.

Hmm...

[small snip]
Best of luck whatever you decide.

Thank you, Charlie. I do appreciate the advice. Perhaps it is an inferior
system.. or one with hidden faults. Whatever the case, in my case, it
'appears' that the MS updates cause my particular system problems, but as
I'd stated in another post, it's also possible that the updates could have
been or become corrupt locally proving undesired results.

I don't know... which is my reason for asking :)

Jeff
 

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