Vuescan 8.2.24, what's new: "Significantly improved infrared cleaning "?

D

Don

Who spends their free time
compiling bug reports from newsgroups about a piece of software they
don't use?

And who spends all of their free time whining about (but defending!) a
program they often can't use because of all the bugs? Hint: the list!

And yet in spite (or because?) of that you say to Vuescan critics:

If supporting facts are *not* provided then it's a biased opinion.
But when the facts *are* provided it results in the above response.

Riiigth... Interesting "logic".

Don.

P.S. Of course, if you thought about it you'd realize that due to the
endless number of Vuescan bugs compiling a *partial* list takes a only
a fraction of the time any one Vuescan victim wastes complaining.

It wouldn't take long to quote your own messages, you know... ;o)
 
E

Evo2Me

If people people whould stop feeding the two resident troublemakers this
group could at last return to its normal business.

Trouble is, I've recently seen two quite interesting posts by Hecate;
Don, OTOH has been kill-filed long ago on my computers.

Another problem is that "troll" is easily used for those whose
opinions differ from one's own. I remember not long ago there was a
lengthy exchange between Kenneth and you, which went down the drain
very quickly without the Terrible Twins lifting one finger between
them. Both of you are valuable members of the group, and both of you
didn't come over like that in said thread.

And there's a third problem, concerning H & D, there posts usually
look like legitimate critique, particularly to readers who are only
coming in for some info. If none of us shows that their posts are BS
(i.e. by asking for specifics), how will newbies know?

BTW, trolls are like your resident cat: sometimes annoying, sometimes
downright nasty but most of the time rather cute.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

So:

8.2.25 says: improved infrared cleaning

8.2.26 says: improved infrared cleaning, especially with Kodachrome
film

8.2.27 says: improved infrared cleaning

By now the scans should be spotless! Anyone tried these? Particularly
the latest? Common, I did 8.2.24...
 
R

Roger S.

I found it improved from 8.2.21 on but can't tell the difference from
..24 to .27.
I think it might be bug fixes for certain scanners.

The cropping for batch scans is still broken with my scanner.
 
R

Ralf R. Radermacher

Mendel Leisk said:
8.2.26 says: improved infrared cleaning, especially with Kodachrome
film

That was when I told Ed that the performance with my 5400 was still far
from acceptable.

The funny thing was it would do a pretty good job on one half of the
dust in the frame and next to nothing on the other. Ed then asked for a
RAW file to reproduce my results which I sent him.

This in turn earned me an email message that...
8.2.27 says: improved infrared cleaning

....would now take care of the other half.

Haven't had time to check as I've been down in the lab for hours and now
working on some medium format negs.

Ralf
 
F

Fernando

Just for the record: I've seen nice improvements in IR cleaning (Fuji
slide) from 8.2.20 to 8.2.27, Minolta 5400.
Still not up-to-par vs. ICE, but better. :)

Fernando
 
F

Fernando

Guess what?

8.2.28 -> "Improved infrared cleaning"

:)

BTW, I'm getting decent results in 8.2.27 with IR clean to "Light" and
IR exposure locked at 1.6

Fernando
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Fernando said:
Guess what?

8.2.28 -> "Improved infrared cleaning"

:)

BTW, I'm getting decent results in 8.2.27 with IR clean to "Light"
and
IR exposure locked at 1.6

Yes, IR cleaning for the DSE-5400 has overall much improved versus
previous VS incarnations. A major complication for the 5400 ppi scans
is that the area affected by IR opaque artifacts is so much larger
than for lower resolution scanners (82% larger area to fill in
compared to 4000 ppi scans).

Bart
 
F

Fernando

Yes. The zone to be filled for each imperfection is quite large in
absolute term, so the filling method should be sophisticated enough in
order to present a nice result.

In the meantime, I retouched DFSub a bit (do you remember it? :) ) and
now I'm using it to get rid of the hideous "red shadows" I was getting
from my Velvia 100F scans (not a Vuescan problem, BTW, for you out
there!).
I scan my regular slide in RAW mode, then I scan a slide taken from the
black tail of the film with the same exposure and still in RAW mode,
then I use DFSub to subtract this "black level" from the original scan.
This resets the black point to a much more reasonable black instead of
the ugly dark red :) and takes care of the streaks, too (yes, they're
back. But now I'm starting to see them with Silverfast too, it must be
my aging 5400). The result, still a "raw" scan in Vuescan terms, is
scanned by Vuescan and produces my final scanned slide, which turns out
very very good: combined with a proper profile, based upon a similarly
scanned IT8 target and built with ProfilePrism, gives me the best
results I've ever got from Velvia scans. :)
Actually, a better approach would be taking care of the non-linear
nature of the colour drift for the high-density zones of the slide,
thus subtracting the dark frame in a non-linear way depending on the
measured density level of the original; but it's too complicated for
the limited spare time I have, and nevertheless I'm very pleased with
the results I'm getting with this simpler approach.

Are you still investigating PSF-based deconvolution? I've found a new
way to implement a L-R type deconvolution, maybe! Still in the very
early phase of the study.

Regards,

Fernando
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Fernando said:
Yes. The zone to be filled for each imperfection is quite large
in absolute term, so the filling method should be sophisticated
enough in order to present a nice result.

Indeed. The difficulty is not in replacing the artifact with a simple
area average, it is more about hiding the uniform/featureless fill-in.
It would require even more heuristic prowess than Photoshop's human
guided healing/patch tool, it requires a healing tool on steroids.
Mind you, ICE does do a reasonably good job (although sometimes
softening unaffected areas more than VueScan), but the licence would
cost more than VueScan itself.
In the meantime, I retouched DFSub a bit (do you remember it? :) )
and now I'm using it to get rid of the hideous "red shadows" I was
getting from my Velvia 100F scans

How *could* I forget it, I have it in my default scan output
directory, ready for salvaging scans if needed. I also remember (from
checking the source) it was coded in a very well structured/readable
way.
(not a Vuescan problem, BTW, for you out there!).
;-)

I scan my regular slide in RAW mode, then I scan a slide taken
from the black tail of the film with the same exposure and still in
RAW mode, then I use DFSub to subtract this "black level" from
the original scan.

Hmm, subtraction (in linear gamma space) doesn't seem quite right to
me, because that also affects the relative channel densities of more
transparent areas as well. The IMHO only real solution is to make a
profile with a target that includes know values of *very* dense
patches. You may get away with either clipping the two densest
channels (which loses some shadow detail), or by artificially
extrapolating the two least dense channels up to match the densest.
This resets the black point to a much more reasonable black
instead of the ugly dark red :) and takes care of the streaks, too
(yes, they're back. But now I'm starting to see them with
Silverfast too, it must be my aging 5400). The result, still a "raw"
scan in Vuescan terms, is scanned by Vuescan and produces
my final scanned slide, which turns out very very good: combined
with a proper profile, based upon a similarly scanned IT8 target
and built with ProfilePrism, gives me the best results I've ever got
from Velvia scans. :)

Okay, so if I understand correcly, you pre-process the file based on
the shadow (high density) areas and then on that Raw file (with mid-
and high-tones that now have a cast) you create a profile that
corrects the casts. It seems to me that such a profile is *very*
sensitive to exposure variations, but for given exposure levels it
might work. However, if it really work, it works ;-)

What remains, is that you trick the software into assuming that there
are shadow exposure levels which didn't exist, by substituting lower
density levels. To me it seems that you can fool the system with the
shadows only, requiring less drastic manipulation at different levels
of the curves.
Actually, a better approach would be taking care of the non-linear
nature of the colour drift for the high-density zones of the slide,
thus subtracting the dark frame in a non-linear way depending on
the measured density level of the original; but it's too complicated
for the limited spare time I have, and nevertheless I'm very
pleased with the results I'm getting with this simpler approach.

Which is indeed what I tried to convey in the above comments.
Are you still investigating PSF-based deconvolution?

Yes, allow me to reply in a sub-thread (PSF-based deconvolution).

Bart
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
Are you still investigating PSF-based deconvolution?

Yes, the status is as follows.

Intro.
It is preferable to use a slanted edge target, as the image of it will
allow to produce an over-sampled edge profile (=Edge Spread Function
or ESF). The first difference/derivative of that one dimensional ESF
is called a Line Spread Function (LSF). An LSF is identical to a 1D
integral of a 2D Point Spread Function (PSF).

Since I have not found a (generally) simple to implement method of
creating a 3D PSF out of a 2D LSF, I've taken the opposite approach.
I've created a quick-and-dirty Excel Spreadsheet that builds a
composite* Gaussian PSF, and then takes an approximate 1D integral of
it, thus producing its LSF.
This is then compared to the actual edge's LSF (calculated from the
copy&pasted Imatest output), and by using the "Solver" add-in the
squared error is minimized.

* Composite meaning that I actually take multiple (currently 3)
Gaussian PSFs with different Standard Deviations and weights (which is
a suggestion I found in an Italian paper). Other functions could be
modeled, but Gaussians have several useful properties.
I've found a new way to implement a L-R type deconvolution,
maybe! Still in the very early phase of the study.

Interesting, as it was one of my main concerns for sharing this info.
The results of the approximated PSF can be used in a variety of
programs that use built-in Deconvolution functions based on an input
kernel, but probably only few of this group's audience will have
access to such a program.

Therefore, I've recently also added to my spreadsheet a High-Pass
filter kernel generator that does a similar Job, but much faster.
After-all deconvolution in Frequency space is identical to convolution
in the Spatial domain, and with simple smallish kernels it's just
faster to simply convolve.

The Custom Plug-in from
<http://www.reindeergraphics.com/free.shtml#customfilter> allows to
use a (8 or) 16-bit/channel 7x7 input kernel in Photoshop (which is
more accurate than Photoshop's 5x5 Custom kernel).
<http://www.reindeergraphics.com/free.shtml#selectedge> will allow the
creation of an edge mask in Photoshop.

The main difference between e.g. adaptive RL restoration and High-Pass
filtering is that RL restoration will allow to extract a bit more info
with better S/N ratio, but at the cost of a *much* longer processing
time. Adding an Edge-Mask to the High-Pass filtered layer will make
some of the differences between methods smaller.

What's more, in the context of this newsgroup, a small (per scanner)
table could be used in VueScan to allow the calculation of the
'optimal' HP 'sharpening'-filter. Only the STDEV and Weight of the
composite Gaussians needs to be recorded, all HP convolution kernel
values can be calculated from that (possibly separable into X and Y
directions for a faster execution, but I yet need to test that).

Bart

P.S. If your email address is valid, I could send you a copy of my
(beta version) spreadsheet for evaluation.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

Just gave the latest, 8.2.31 a try, due to a flurry of cleaning
improvement claims in "what's new". To be kind, it may be marginally
better. My usual test slide, which cleans up almost 100% with ICE still
has all the background scuffing marks, and quite a few major scratches
remain.

There is something SERIOUSLY messed-up with the cropping, tho...
alteast with my Scan Elite 5400. Tried resetting to defaults, no change.
 
R

Roger S.

Agreed, cropping on batch scans fails completely. I also get very
weird blurry bars on both sides of the image with .30. Please email Ed
with your findings as I want him to know it's not just me. He asked me
to test this version and I told him cropping still isn't functional.
I'm using the Canoscan FS4000US.
With previous versions, setting cropping to "maximum" was a workaround
but these blurry barrs are bad news so I'm back to an earlier versin.
 
D

Don

Agreed, cropping on batch scans fails completely. I also get very
weird blurry bars on both sides of the image with .30. Please email Ed
with your findings as I want him to know it's not just me. He asked me
to test this version and I told him cropping still isn't functional.
I'm using the Canoscan FS4000US.
With previous versions, setting cropping to "maximum" was a workaround
but these blurry barrs are bad news so I'm back to an earlier versin.

Er... ;o)

Seriously though, and you may not believe it, but I do sympathize. It
reminds me of my never ending Nikon/Kodachrome problems.

Don.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

Would if I could. I'm on his black list, since venting here regarding
Vuescan's undocumented feature of assigning icc profiles to raw file if
scan-from-disk outputting new raw file is done "at save".
 
J

John

Mendel Leisk said:
Would if I could. I'm on his black list, since venting here regarding
Vuescan's undocumented feature of assigning icc profiles to raw file if
scan-from-disk outputting new raw file is done "at save".

Do you know for certain that you are blacklisted and that it is a result of
your posts to this NG? I don't remember any of your posts regarding the
above as being particularly damning.
 
M

Mendel Leisk

The thread titled:

"Vuescan raw files saved "at save" have altered color balance"

prompted Ed Hamrick to email me with the good news. He mentioned his
action was in light of my recent Usenet posting.

Perhaps he was having a rough day. Everybody does.
 
G

greetgreet

Mendel said:
The thread titled:

"Vuescan raw files saved "at save" have altered color balance"

prompted Ed Hamrick to email me with the good news. He mentioned his
action was in light of my recent Usenet posting.

Perhaps he was having a rough day. Everybody does.

Now you've got to give him credit for his courtesy: he lets you know how
you have pissed him off! Thought he left this group, but apparently not.
 
D

Don

The thread titled:

"Vuescan raw files saved "at save" have altered color balance"

prompted Ed Hamrick to email me with the good news. He mentioned his
action was in light of my recent Usenet posting.

I've never ever heard of a company keeping a blacklist of its
customers!? That's just mind boggling.

It was evident for a long time from his posts that Ed Hamrick is very
arrogant and has an incredibly short fuse but to actually keep a
blacklist is just unbelievable.

It also confirms, as I've been saying all along, that he continues to
read this group. However, instead of using it to improve the program,
he uses it to "hunt down" the critics! Unbelievable!
Perhaps he was having a rough day. Everybody does.

That's no excuse for a *business*. Such petty vindictiveness has no
place anywhere, let alone a "business".

What I genuinely wonder (and I *really* do?) is why do you put up with
this? I mean, you're clearly unhappy with the software. On top of that
you're being singled out for daring to post the truth. So why use it?
The natural response would be to ask for your money back.

Don.
 

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