Trouble converting Word 6.0/95 into 97-2004 Word doc.

[dannybex]

I have a screenplay that I wrote using styles set up when I was using
Word 6.0.

I recently got a MacG5 and Word 2004 version 11.2. The screenplay used
to run 111 pages. On the new computer it opens up at 120 pages -- more
space between the letters, and more space between the lines. Not good.

So I tried to do a "Compatibility" check. It says "to ensure that this
document looks the same on computers running Word 97 or later, change
the compatibility options to Microsoft Word 2000-2004 and X in the
preferences dialogue box.

I do that, but nothing changes. If I click on any of the list of
options, the "recommended options" which was set as above, changes to
"Custom".

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Dan

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/TextReflow.htm for an explanation
if not a solution.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

As Suzanne said, page breaks change by printer, program, etc.

In particular, MS did something to shift the metrics (I think) from Word X
to Word 2004, so Word 2004 has noticeably different page breaks from earlier
versions of MacWord. Nothing much you can do about it--you could try
changing the line spacing from double spaced to exactly 23 pt or something
and see if you prefer that.

For future reference, you might be interested in knowing there are
Mac-specific newsgroups as well.

See here for Google/Entourage gateway to newsgroups for MacWord, MacExcel,
and other MS programs for the Mac:
<http://www.microsoft.com/mac/community/community.aspx?pid=newsgroups>

 

[dannybex]

Thanks for your replies -- I really appreciate them.

But -- I'm still a little confused. If the PRINTER is the issue, why
the need for the "compatability" feature, if it doesn't really work?
And why isn't this printer issue mentioned in the compatibilitiy
dialogue box?

I do actually still have my old printer, so I could try getting that,
rehooking it up, and see what happens. But (and I know this is not
either of your faults) -- what a hassle! It's the computer (G5) that's
new, and the Word that's new -- the printer just happens to be new
because I was doing some graphics work and was having color issues. So
I bought a cheap Epson R220, to replace my cheap HP 920c...

From Suzanne's article:

"Don't use hard page breaks! Using hard page breaks (Ctrl+Enter) just
makes matters worse. But you can use style and paragraph formatting to
keep text together. Judicious use of "Keep with next," "Keep
lines together," and "Page break before" formatting (under Format
+ Paragraph + Layout) will keep important sections together."

That's the way I have the formatting set up. With a screenplay, you
want the dialogue to stay together, the scene direction to stay
together, etc.. I always read and write in "normal" view, but in the
past, on the old 'puter, have looked at it in "page layout" format, and
it was just fine -- helped me confirm how each page would look to the
eye.

"You can also experiment with checking and clearing the "Use printer
metrics" check box on the Compatibility tab of Tools | Options to see
what effect that will have."

That didn't change anything -- sorry.

"Ultimately, though, if you want to preserve the look of your document,
what works best is to select the printer on which you will ultimately
be printing the document (even if not connected to the printer where
you're editing). Then you will know exactly where the page breaks will
fall."

Call me clueless, but I'm confused. I edit the document in word, on my
computer, not the printer???

"Of course, that won't help if you need to email the document to others
- but the other suggestions will.
If you are emailing the document to others, and if preserving the page
layout is critical, one solution is to email your document in Adobe
Acrobat PDF format."

Well, that's nice to know - thanks. I wish I had known that 2 years
ago when I emailed a script to a producer. Who knows how it came out.
Never heard back from him, but from now on, if I ever send it via
email, I'll convert it to a PDF.

Thanks again. Hope you can help clarify the issues I bring up here.
and thanks to for the link to the other group. I did post the same
question on another site -- macosx...

And thanks for your patience -- I have no technical savvy at all...

Dan

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi dannybex,

Thanks for your replies -- I really appreciate them.

But -- I'm still a little confused. If the PRINTER is the issue, why
the need for the "compatability" feature, if it doesn't really work?
And why isn't this printer issue mentioned in the compatibilitiy
dialogue box?

The compatibility check is about features--when stuff might not show up in
the document. For instance, if you used Track Changes and an earlier
version didn't support it, the compatibility check would warn you. I don't
think page breaks are considered part of compatibility.

I do actually still have my old printer, so I could try getting that,
rehooking it up, and see what happens. But (and I know this is not
either of your faults) -- what a hassle! It's the computer (G5) that's
new, and the Word that's new -- the printer just happens to be new
because I was doing some graphics work and was having color issues. So
I bought a cheap Epson R220, to replace my cheap HP 920c...

Because so many people have complained about page breaks changing from Word
X to Word 2004, I doubt the old printer will help. But you can try it.

That's the way I have the formatting set up. With a screenplay, you
want the dialogue to stay together, the scene direction to stay
together, etc..

Then, out of curiosity, why is the changed page count a problem? Everything
that needs to be together is still together, right?

"Ultimately, though, if you want to preserve the look of your document,
what works best is to select the printer on which you will ultimately
be printing the document (even if not connected to the printer where
you're editing). Then you will know exactly where the page breaks will
fall."

Call me clueless, but I'm confused. I edit the document in word, on my
computer, not the printer???

Word lays out the document in conjunction with the printer, and every
printer is different. You can install printer drivers and tell Word you are
going to use them (and you might try that, with your old printer). For a
more extensive explanation, see here:
http://daiya.mvps.org/wordpages.htm

Thanks again. Hope you can help clarify the issues I bring up here.
and thanks to for the link to the other group. I did post the same
question on another site -- macosx...

That site just mirrors the Mac-specific newsgroups that I directed you to,
by the way.

 

[dannybex]

Hi Daiya,

You wrote: "The compatibility check is about features--when stuff might
not show up in
the document...I don't
think page breaks are considered part of compatibility."

Well, it's not your doing, but with all due respect, that's insane. At
least in a script, a page break is incredibly important "feature".

"Then, out of curiosity, why is the changed page count a problem?
Everything
that needs to be together is still together, right?"

The page count is a problem in the minds of Hollywood producers and
readers. A page is roughly equal to one minute of screen time, so in
general they want a script to come in between 95 and 110 pages,
especially for unestablished writers. Mine came in at 111. Now it's
120 -- a huge difference, at least in their eyes.

I missed something earlier -- you mention that the printer doesn't even
need to be connected, but that the printer driver (for the hp) needs to
be selected -- is that correct? I hope I didn't toss that out. I know
I deleted the hp from the "driver" (I hate that term!)...

Anyway, thanks again for your patient replies.

One more question: What if when saving the document, I saved it as an
RTF, or at the bottom of the list, a "word 4.0-6.0/95 Compatible RTF?
Even if that reverted the script back to the original page count, etc.,
how would that work if I sent it off to others via email (which I doubt
I would do -- usually send a hard copy...)?

thanks

d.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

To add to what Daiya said, installing the driver for your old printer
probably wouldn't help here because, if you have changed operating systems,
it will be a different driver.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Graham Mayor]

Word is not a page layout application. 'Pages' are transient entities
produced in conjunction with the document formatting and the printer driver.
Documents are reformatted according to the abilities of the printer as
dictated by the printer driver which Word interrogates for that purpose.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi dannybex,

The page count is a problem in the minds of Hollywood producers and
readers. A page is roughly equal to one minute of screen time, so in
general they want a script to come in between 95 and 110 pages,
especially for unestablished writers. Mine came in at 111. Now it's
120 -- a huge difference, at least in their eyes.

Ah, very illuminating.

I bet for years, Hollywood producers have been saying, "why is this 110 page
script longer than other 110 page scripts?" Long time since (like 10
years), I noticed that spacing in MacWord was tighter than in WinWord.
Producers could easily have been laying your scripts next to other peoples'
and going "hey, this guy got more text on a page and this script is longer
than we thought".

In Word 2004, they loosened up the spacing for greater page break
consistency between Mac and Win Word. You are stuck with this. Compatibility
check is not going to do anything about it. I don't think messing with the
printer driver is not going to do anything about it.

Things you can try:

In Word 2004, see if changing the line spacing helps. 24pt qualifies as
double-spaced.

RTF might help--try it. See what happens if you save as RTF in Word and
open in TextEdit.

The "RTF for word 4-6" sounds like a bad option, but a save as can't do any
harm.

If you are sending via email, get it the way you want it and convert to PDF
and send the PDF.

If you can access a copy of Word X (borrow a friend's machine, perhaps?),
convert it to PDF right then and print from the PDF on your machine.

Sorry not to have happier info,

Daiya

 

[dannybex]

Hi Daiya

Thanks again for your input. I don't know if you have access to the
people who create the next versions of Word, but I humbly plead that
they put in a way to change the kerning (as they do with line spacing,
under the Paragraph menu) where you can set it to "exactly" and then
specify how you want it to condense. I tried changing the kerning, and
nothing happened at 0.9 pt. When I changed it to 1 pt, two words from
the second line hopped up to the first line -- a HUGE change with just
1/10 of 1 pt difference. Yet I couldn''t set it for 0.97 pt or
whatever.

If this is the standard I guess I'll eventually blend in -- but to my
eye -- the wide spacing especially between words (in courier) looks
like it was typed like this.

Reeeeally awkward looking, made even worse when the line by line
spacing is tightened up.

Screenplays are formatted in single space, not double space, so after
tightening the 12 pt space between lines to 11.5 pt or even 11.75 --
because the space between the words is still so large, it accentuates
the larger space between the words, making it look (to me) like a stack
of bricks, rather than a paragraph.

I know this may all sound extremely trivial, but when one is trying to
break into the business, the a properly formatted script (not to
mention an entertaining one at that) is THE WAY to get one's foot in
the door, then you'd be as frustrated and upset as I am. Not with you
personally of course, but with Microsoft.

If you can, please pass on my complaint to the higher-ups. This
spacing, and the inability to custom adjust it -- well -- it sucks.

Thanks in advance,

Dan

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Dan,

I was thinking your problem is line spacing, not word spacing. Wide spaces
between words sounds like something is wrong--I don't get it here. And
that's not trivial at all. I've got a doc in Courier New here and all the
spaces between words are the same size and about the size of a letter.
(Courier is inherently kinda awkward looking, though)

Are you using the exact driver for the printer you have? Is the text
justified on the right margin?

Under Format | Font | Character Spacing--that's not how kerning works, I
don't think. It is either on or off, and all you can do there is tell it to
automatically turn on for fonts at a certain size. I guess you mean you
changed the Spacing to Condensed at 1pt?

Daiya

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

You could also get huge gaps (especially in Courier) if the paragraph is
Justified.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[dannybex]

Hi again. I appreciate your patience and dedication Daiya.

And I also appreciate your understanding. The space between the words
is definitely more than the size of an average letter -- I would guess
about one and one/quarter's width? I agree, Courier is awkward looking
(old-fashioned) enough as it is...

I'm assuming I'm using the exact driver for the printer. (Weird
question -- why do they call it a "driver"? I thought a driver is
someone who drives...)

Anyway, when I hit "Print", the name of my printer is at the top of the
box that opens -- "Stylus Photo R220".

The text is left justified, right is ragged.

Character spacing may not be exactly the same as kerning. I think
kerning is more specifically the balancing space between certain letter
combinations. Nevertheless, nothing seems to change unless I change
the spacing to condensed at 1pt -- and then it's TOO crowded.
Producers will toss out the script for that reason alone as it's
obvious that the writer is trying to fool them into accepting what may
really be a 130 page script -- you know?

So if it looks right on your computer (do you have a mac or a pc?) I'm
not sure what I can do. I could always send you the first page in PDF
format so you could see it for yourself, as maybe I'm just crazy!?!!?


d.

 

[dannybex]

Graham and Suzanne -- thanks for your replies too. I sincerely
appreciate your input!

Graham said: Word is not a page layout application. 'Pages' are
transient entities
produced in conjunction with the document formatting and the printer
driver.
Documents are reformatted according to the abilities of the printer as
dictated by the printer driver which Word interrogates for that
purpose."

This is again, what I just don't seem to understand. How does the
printer affect what I see on my computer screen BEFORE I even am ready
to print?

 

[dannybex]

I'm adding this because it even though it didn't work, it MAY help
discover the root of the problem???

I got this advice offline -- to go into Format, then Font, then under
character spacing (or above it actually) change the scale to 95%.

When I did this, the space between the letters crowded noticeably,
making the spaces between the words even larger, or at the very least,
definitely more obvious.

So if I (or we?) could only find a way to reduce the space between the
words...



d

 

[Graham Mayor]

This is again, what I just don't seem to understand. How does the
printer affect what I see on my computer screen BEFORE I even am ready
to print?

The printer driver is the software that determines the capabilities of the
printer and allows the document to be printed. Word works very closely with
the printer driver to determine font availability, and its positioning on
the page, page layout, paper handling etc, all of which are provided by the
driver and not by Word. To easily determine this for yourself, add the
generic / text only printer driver to Windows and see what effect that has
on your document when you set it as the active printer. You will immediately
lose the ability to change fonts as plain text cannot adopt font
information.

The printer driver tells Word how to space the fonts, where to place the
page breaks etc. There can be differences in presentation between different
driver versions for the same printer - and different operating systems will
have different driver versions.

If your application requires you to present your work on a given number of
pages, then you need to know how many Words there are to be to a page, and
thus you could adjust the font size, text and line spacing to achieve the
results you want based on the printer that will be used to output the
document to paper. If you are unsure which printer will be used, it would be
worth installing Acrobat and having its driver as the active printer while
you format the document. The resulting PDF file will retain the page layout
no matter what printer it is output to.

See also http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/TextReflow.htm

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[dannybex]

Hi Graham,

Thanks for your info on printer "drivers". Why they don't just call it
printer software is beyond me...

Apparently you missed my first post -- I have a Mac G5, not a PC with
Windows. Because of strict entertainment industry standards described
above, I cannot change the typeface, or "cheat" by narrowing the line
spacing or font size. They'll immediately suspect I'm trying to make a
screenplay they consider too long (120+pages) to look shorter - within
industry norms of 95-110 pages.

With screenplays, the number of words on a page varies enormously,
depending on the amount of scene description and/or dialogue. Some
pages could be have very little description and dialogue, while others
might have twice that.

I do have Acrobat Reader, so I suppose I have a printer "driver" --
software! -- for that. I'll look into it, but as Daiya mentioned,
this unusual spacing between WORDS is not correct, and shouldn't be
looking the way it does, regardless of which printer it's linked to.
At least I think that's what she was implying...

Thanks again,

d.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

The printer affects what you see on the screen before you print because Word
aims to be WYSIWYG, and this depends on the printer (driver) selected. It's
possible that a "photo printer" is not ideal for text printing, but that
would just be a wild guess.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Given the variation in page content, it's remarkable that the industry seems
to have established a strict pages-to-minutes ratio.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Dan,

I do have Acrobat Reader, so I suppose I have a printer "driver" --
software! -- for that.

No, you don't. Only if you have a program that creates PDFs. (The "driver"
drives or controls the printer, so printer driver). I have not figured out
what the OS X PDF creator uses as a printer driver.

I'll look into it, but as Daiya mentioned,
this unusual spacing between WORDS is not correct, and shouldn't be
looking the way it does, regardless of which printer it's linked to.
At least I think that's what she was implying...

It is what I was implying. Remove the obvious stuff to email me direct:
Daiya Mitchell <[email protected]>

Can you email me:
A page or so as a Word 2004 doc
The same page or so as a PDF.

Actually, it's possible that the OS X PDF creator will do a better job of
spacing the letters than your photo printer driver.

The printer affects what you see on the screen before you print because Word
aims to be WYSIWYG, and this depends on the printer (driver) selected. It's
possible that a "photo printer" is not ideal for text printing, but that
would just be a wild guess.

I actually kinda had that wild guess as well. Like 10 years ago, inkjets did
a horrible job of right-justification but lasers did it fine.