talking about updates...

[Greegor]

Il giorno Wed 31 Oct 2012 07:28:59p, *VanguardLH* inviava su

Now that YOU
choose to delete those folders on behalf of your customer, you've made
it impossible for your customer to uninstall many of those updates
should they incur problems.

I usually remove all those backup folders some weeks after any update, once
I'm sure the computer is ok. This on my old pcs with XP, on Vista and Seven
I do more or less the same, deleting all restore points and creating just
one when I re-enable the system protection. The only thing I'm missing is a
safe way to make some cleanup also in the winsxs folder...

The customer said: clean the viruses and make room on the disk

I posted these responses to somebody else some time ago
but I thought they would be appropriate here.


Why is hard disk space THAT precious to you?

What are your system specs, in detail?
Processor, Speed, exact Windows version,
Especially your hard disk and partition sizes...

Attempting to deprive your system of
working space is counterproductive.

Do you live in a rural part of the Hindu Kush, or what?

Why are you THAT poor?

Maybe if you got rid of all of that anonymous posting
garbage on your system you'd have more room
for YouTube to work?

Do you have Aspergers?

--

People who obsess too much about small amounts
of hard disk space tend to be headed for problems.
They tend to try things they THINK are solutions
but which ultimately lead to disaster for them.

1. They usually FAIL to make proper backups to
protect them against the eventual drive failure.
2. They are tempted to delete system files that
they THINK they don't need, but which often ends badly.

3. They're often running a computer that was a
castoff and so foolishly refuse to consider spending
even $20 to buy a larger hard disk drive for it.

4. Their obsessive efforts may actually accelerate the
end of their old hard disk because of concentrated
and repetitive wear patterns.

5. Even if you're living in a rural part of the Hindu Kush,
buying an additional hard disk and making useful backups
are viable options, especially if you want to watch YouTube!

 

[glee]

Il giorno Wed 31 Oct 2012 07:28:59p, *VanguardLH* inviava su



I posted these responses to somebody else some time ago
but I thought they would be appropriate here.


Why is hard disk space THAT precious to you?

What are your system specs, in detail?
Processor, Speed, exact Windows version,
Especially your hard disk and partition sizes...

Attempting to deprive your system of
working space is counterproductive.

Do you live in a rural part of the Hindu Kush, or what?

Why are you THAT poor?

Maybe if you got rid of all of that anonymous posting
garbage on your system you'd have more room
for YouTube to work?

Do you have Aspergers?

--

People who obsess too much about small amounts
of hard disk space tend to be headed for problems.
They tend to try things they THINK are solutions
but which ultimately lead to disaster for them.

1. They usually FAIL to make proper backups to
protect them against the eventual drive failure.
2. They are tempted to delete system files that
they THINK they don't need, but which often ends badly.

3. They're often running a computer that was a
castoff and so foolishly refuse to consider spending
even $20 to buy a larger hard disk drive for it.

4. Their obsessive efforts may actually accelerate the
end of their old hard disk because of concentrated
and repetitive wear patterns.

5. Even if you're living in a rural part of the Hindu Kush,
buying an additional hard disk and making useful backups
are viable options, especially if you want to watch YouTube!

Your snide comment about Asperger syndrome is insulting, irrelevant and
inappropriate, as well as showing that you don't actually know what it's
symptoms are.
As for your comment concerning backups, there is no relationship
whatsoever between someone trying to gain disk space and your claim that
such a person doesn't do backups.

As for spending $20 to buy a new large hard drive.... seriously? Where
do you see new large hard drives for $20?! It is perfectly valid for a
user on limited income (retired, elderly, or a low-income family with
children, and ,many others) to not be able to afford replacing a good
hard drive with a larger one for the sole purpose of gaining disk space,
when they need their money for other things. Apparently you do not work
with a large number of home users or are unaware of the priorities some
people must set in regards to how they spend and on what. Perhaps it is
you who live in the remote part of Hindu Kush.... another of your snide
and unnecessary remarks, by the way.

 

[Steve Urbach]

Your snide comment about Asperger syndrome is insulting, irrelevant and
inappropriate, as well as showing that you don't actually know what it's
symptoms are.
As for your comment concerning backups, there is no relationship
whatsoever between someone trying to gain disk space and your claim that
such a person doesn't do backups.

As for spending $20 to buy a new large hard drive.... seriously? Where
do you see new large hard drives for $20?! It is perfectly valid for a
user on limited income (retired, elderly, or a low-income family with
children, and ,many others) to not be able to afford replacing a good
hard drive with a larger one for the sole purpose of gaining disk space,
when they need their money for other things. Apparently you do not work
with a large number of home users or are unaware of the priorities some
people must set in regards to how they spend and on what. Perhaps it is
you who live in the remote part of Hindu Kush.... another of your snide
and unnecessary remarks, by the way.

I bet there are plenty of 'lightly used' drives that came out of systems that
were upgraded that could be had for that.

Many (not the ultra mini ones) 'desktop' systems have room for a second HD. so
there would be no *need* to get a 'big' drive

XP can *span* drives if having a new drive letter would confuse.

 

[glee]

e!

I bet there are plenty of 'lightly used' drives that came out of
systems that
were upgraded that could be had for that.

Many (not the ultra mini ones) 'desktop' systems have room for a
second HD. so
there would be no *need* to get a 'big' drive

XP can *span* drives if having a new drive letter would confuse.

"Spanning" drives in XP can only be done with XP Pro, not XP Home, and
cannot be done on a portable computer, e.g. a laptop.

While there are some laptops that have a second hard drive bay, they are
not particularly common.

Yes, a used hard drive may be available for $20, but I would not suggest
a user "upgrade" to a used hard drive as their primary single drive.

 

[Buffalo]

"Spanning" drives in XP can only be done with XP Pro, not XP Home, and
cannot be done on a portable computer, e.g. a laptop.

While there are some laptops that have a second hard drive bay, they
are not particularly common.

Yes, a used hard drive may be available for $20, but I would not
suggest a user "upgrade" to a used hard drive as their primary single
drive.

Always appreciated your advice, and I see you are still being very logical.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
Buffalo
PS: I may soon have to upgrade from my dual boot Win98SE and Win2000ProSP4
systems.
I'm not sure if I want to go to the 64bit Win7 or maybe just upgrade to the
32bit WinXP-SP3.
SSD's are another concern of mine.

 

[Greegor]

I stand by my comment about people who would
remove uninstall files in some perverse attempt to
save hard disk space. They have other "comorbidities"
like the habit of not making backups.

What are the specs of the system you did that to,
Ammammata?

As others have pointed out, that method of
freeing space can easily become catastrophic.

If you really want to pare down Windows, you
could use nLite, and slipstream it, which would
gain you a lot more space, but deleting 100K
of uninstall files from an 8 to 10 GB Windows install
is perverse, obsessive and actually counterproductive.

Do you think a "neurotypical" person would
do that rather than add more hard disk space
or replace the drive with a larger one, Glen?

Glen > As for your comment concerning backups,
Glen > there is no relationship whatsoever between
Glen > someone trying to gain disk space and
Glen > your claim that such a person doesn't do backups.

Somebody who would delete 100K of uninstall files
on an 8GB+ system install sure sounds to ME like
the kind who is short on space, as in too short on
space to make backups because they lack
common sense enough to replace and enlarge
their hard disk.

Aspies typically lack common sense, among other things.

 

[glee]

replies inline...

I stand by my comment about people who would
remove uninstall files in some perverse attempt to
save hard disk space. They have other "comorbidities"
like the habit of not making backups.

That's a totally unsupported as well as illogical conclusion with no
basis.

What are the specs of the system you did that to,
Ammammata?

As others have pointed out, that method of
freeing space can easily become catastrophic.

No, not catastrophic. Removing the $NTUninstall$ folders (which is what
the original post was about) only remove the ability to uninstall
updates and service packs. Once a good period of time has gone by
following installation of those updates and service packs, the need to
have to uninstall them dwindles to nothing, and removing the uninstall
files does no harm.

If you really want to pare down Windows, you
could use nLite, and slipstream it, which would
gain you a lot more space, but deleting 100K
of uninstall files from an 8 to 10 GB Windows install
is perverse, obsessive and actually counterproductive.

Where did you come up with 100K?? The $NTUninstall$ files take up in
the range of 1.5GB or more.

Do you think a "neurotypical" person would
do that rather than add more hard disk space
or replace the drive with a larger one, Glen?

Yes, if they could not afford a new hard drive and did not want to
remove certain other files. This was already mentioned. I have worked
on client machines that had a small hard drive in good working order,
and the client could not afford to replace the drive at this time. In
such cases, every bit of extra space that can be gained can be
important.

Glen > As for your comment concerning backups,
Glen > there is no relationship whatsoever between
Glen > someone trying to gain disk space and
Glen > your claim that such a person doesn't do backups.

Somebody who would delete 100K of uninstall files
on an 8GB+ system install sure sounds to ME like
the kind who is short on space, as in too short on
space to make backups because they lack
common sense enough to replace and enlarge
their hard disk.

What pray tell does it have to do with backups? Only a fool would
create their backups on the same physical drive as the original data....
which I see from another of your posts today in this group (re: Best
Restore Method) is what you foolishly do, by suggesting to create your
system image on the same physical drive as your OS and data.

Aspies typically lack common sense, among other things.

Now you are just showing your ignorance. People with Asperger's
Syndrome have repetitive behaviors, lack of empathy, difficulty with
social interaction.... but it has nothing to do with "lack of common
sense". "Aspies" are more often than not very intelligent and have no
"common sense" issues.

 

[Greegor]

Glen > That's a totally unsupported as well as
Glen > illogical conclusion with no basis.

Just my actual experiences dealing with people, Glen.

No, not catastrophic.  Removing the $NTUninstall$ folders (which is what
the original post was about) only remove the ability to uninstall
updates and service packs.  Once a good period of time has gone by
following installation of those updates and service packs, the need to
have to uninstall them dwindles to nothing, and removing the uninstall
files does no harm.

Are you seriously arguing that to be preferable to
replacing or adding hard disk space, Glen?

Microsoft and CompTIA should de-license you for that absurdity.

Where did you come up with 100K??  The $NTUninstall$
files take up in the range of 1.5GB or more.

What do you think 1.5 GB costs today, Glen? $2 worth?
Wow!

Yes, if they could not afford a new hard drive and did not want to
remove certain other files.  This was already mentioned.  I have worked
on client machines that had a small hard drive in good working order,
and the client could not afford to replace the drive at this time.  In
such cases, every bit of extra space that can be gained can be
important.

Did they make backups, Glen?

Did you get paid in chickens?

How much were you telling them a hard disk would cost?

Just what SIZE of hard disk did this client have?
How valuable was their data to them?

Did you give them a guarantee?

Did you get them to sign a WAIVER for doing
what you know to be risky substandard work, Glen?

I would if I had to do something like that.

What pray tell does it have to do with backups?  Only a fool would
create their backups on the same physical drive as the original data....

Yes, a fool or most major manufacturers. :>

I agree with your trite simplistic comment, but
In actual practice, backup partitiions,
especially CLONED system partitions solve
about 90% of all problems with messed up Windows.

The importance of an off drive image would be
Crucial for the INEVITABLE other 10% of the
time when more drastic measures are needed.
(And what do you know, I didn't overlook that fact
in my other post you cited, Glen! Why did you
pretend that I did overlook that?)

which I see from another of your posts today in this group (re: Best
Restore Method) is what you foolishly do, by suggesting to create your
system image on the same physical drive as your OS and data.

Yes, as preferable to the hidden OEM restore partition.

I distinctly remembered suggesting cloning
to other drives. Did you miss this part, Glen?

-------------------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...p.help_and_support/msg/95ea751074405fd5?hl=en
[...]
G > Ideally you would also make a CLONE of your
G > system partition to another drive or several drives
G > as well. Perhaps even a USB external hard disk
G > or a 32 GB USB Flash drive...
[...]
G > On a 200 GB HD I'd be tempted to rig it with
G > two backup bootable partitions in addition
G > to the first one, but that could add more confusion
G > than it's worth. A clone to another drive would
G > of course be preferable.
G >
G > Somewhere I saw that some business people
G > who fly a lot regularly CLONE their drive right
G > before each trip, in case an X-Ray machine
G > wipes it or it gets damaged by dropping.
G >
G > They leave a clone drive image in a locked
G > desk drawer or in an IT holding area before
G > each trip.
-------------------------------------------------


G > Aspies typically lack common sense, among other things.

Now you are just showing your ignorance.  People with Asperger's
Syndrome have repetitive behaviors, lack of empathy, difficulty with
social interaction....

Why sugar coat it, Glen, they're sociopaths by definition.
They're not all happy and positive like TV's "Sheldon Cooper" either!

but it has nothing to do with "lack of common
sense".  "Aspies" are more often than not very intelligent and have no
"common sense" issues.

Aspies are called IDIOT/SAVANTS for a reason, Glen.

 

[philo]

On 11/23/2012 12:24 PM, Greegor wrote:

Greegor:

<portions snipped>

To pick a fight with Glen is a pretty good way to have yourself labeled
as a troll. As someone who has been on Usenet for something like 12
years and have read quite a few of his posts...he's a pretty
knowledgeable and respected person.

Note: I, personally am a Linux user and am in no way sticking up for him
because he is one of my good, "Microsoft pals". I am just someone who
has made a few observations.

I agree with your trite simplistic comment, but
In actual practice, backup partitiions,
especially CLONED system partitions solve
about 90% of all problems with messed up Windows.

The importance of an off drive image would be
Crucial for the INEVITABLE other 10% of the
time when more drastic measures are needed.

That is a poor observation as there is a 100% chance that the entire
drive will fail at some point.

No harm in having a backup on a separate partition
but I always tell my clients to be sure to back up all important data
on a minimum of two totally independent hard drives.


Finally there is absolutely nothing wrong about disagreeing with
what someone's posts...and I am sure Glen (and all here) welcome
differing opinions. As long as the format of your argument is construed
in a logical and congenial manner your opinions are completely welcome.

However as soon as insults are hurled...the debate is lost...
no matter how good the logic may hold up otherwise.

 

[glee]

snip


Are you seriously arguing that to be preferable to
replacing or adding hard disk space, Glen?

Microsoft and CompTIA should de-license you for that absurdity.

I stated absolutely nothing of the kind.... read it again. Nowhere in
any of my comments have I stated or implied that it was preferable.
Your comment is absurd.

What do you think 1.5 GB costs today, Glen? $2 worth?
Wow!

You don't buy pieces of a hard drive, you buy the whole thing. Or are
you privy to some new way of physically adding a few GB to an existing
hard drive? My comments specifically were about someone who cannot
afford to replace their working hard drive with a larger one.

Did they make backups, Glen?

Sometimes but not always.... I back up their data or show them how to do
so to a CD or USB, depending on what they have available. Backups
should not be done to the same drive as the one containing the data.

Did you get paid in chickens?

I don't charge people who cannot afford it, and in some cases only
charge for parts. I use a sliding scale for low-income people, get full
price from others and from businesses.

How much were you telling them a hard disk would cost?

Hard drive prices are readily available through an online search....
look them up. Surely you already know what a new hard drive costs.

Just what SIZE of hard disk did this client have?
How valuable was their data to them?

Varies.... anywhere from 30GB to 80 GB. Everyone's data is valuable to
them personally.

Did you give them a guarantee?

Guarantee on what? My work? Yes. That they won't need a new drive
eventually? Obviously not. I image all my customers systems prior to
making any major changes, and keep the image on my external drives in
case they are needed in the future.

Did you get them to sign a WAIVER for doing
what you know to be risky substandard work, Glen?

Neither risky nor substandard.... no waiver needed. Any hard drive can
fail at any time. Making more space on a small drive in good working
order is not particularly risky. Removing backups to updates and SP's
is also not risky. I have an image of their system before I begin.

I would if I had to do something like that.

Then those of my clients that are low-income won't be asking for your
help.... good for them.

Yes, a fool or most major manufacturers. :>

Yes, them too. Just because the OEMs have the restoration partition on
the same, and usually only, hard drive as the OS doesn't mean it's a
good idea. When the dive fails, the restoration partition is gone.
That's why most OEMs include an imaging app and usually suggest the user
make restore discs when they get the new machine.

I agree with your trite simplistic comment, but
In actual practice, backup partitiions,
especially CLONED system partitions solve
about 90% of all problems with messed up Windows.

I almost never have to use an image backup unless the drive has
physically failed and I need to clone from an image to a new drive. I
and many of the techs I know can fix most problems with Windows without
having to use an image restoration, or even System Restore. I always
have images available, but if you know what you are doing you don't
often need them.

The importance of an off drive image would be
Crucial for the INEVITABLE other 10% of the
time when more drastic measures are needed.
(And what do you know, I didn't overlook that fact
in my other post you cited, Glen! Why did you
pretend that I did overlook that?)


Yes, as preferable to the hidden OEM restore partition.

I distinctly remembered suggesting cloning
to other drives. Did you miss this part, Glen?

No, I didn't... you added that "if possible" you would *also* make a
backup to an external drive.... your primary comment was about cloning
to another partition on the same drive as the OS and data. That is what
I clearly referred to. I'm beginning to think you have a reading
comprehension problem, but perhaps English is not your first language
and you missed some of this... if that's the case, I will try to be more
clear if I can.

G > Aspies typically lack common sense, among other things.


Why sugar coat it, Glen, they're sociopaths by definition.
They're not all happy and positive like TV's "Sheldon Cooper" either!

Sociopaths, eh? You are really showing your ignorance of the subject
now. Have you worked with people with Asperger's?

Aspies are called IDIOT/SAVANTS for a reason, Glen.

Except they are not. A savant (autistic savant, or idiot savant as you
put it) is distinct from a person with Asperger's. Although they both
fall into the autistic spectrum of disorders, only about 10% of people
with Asperger's are savants. People with Asperger's often have "above
average IQ, unusual interest and capability in natural sciences, complex
calculations, computer programming or other areas of expertise which can
be extensive and expansive; marked genetic roots with strong family
histories of similar or related traits; early, rather than delayed,
language and word recognition skills; poor motor coordination; and a
generally higher level of social functioning than seen in Autistic
persons but still with unusual, peculiar and naive social interactions."
**

**
http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/savant_faq.asp?name=Darold Treffert#aspergers

"Naive social interactions" does not equal "sociopath".

 

[Greegor]

I stated absolutely nothing of the kind.... read it again.  Nowhere in
any of my comments have I stated or implied that it was preferable.
Your comment is absurd.

You defended the deletion of undelete files to recover space.

You don't buy pieces of a hard drive, you buy the whole thing.  Or are
you privy to some new way of physically adding a few GB to an existing
hard drive?  My comments specifically were about someone who cannot
afford to replace their working hard drive with a larger one.

I have done a fair amount of salvaging and repurposing
old or castoff computers myself, Glen.
If somebody was really that much of a charity case
then I would give them another old drive before I would
delete their uninstall files.

Sometimes but not always.... I back up their data or show them how to do
so to a CD or USB, depending on what they have available.  Backups
should not be done to the same drive as the one containing the data.

Obviously not if they have mission critical data that isn't
always backed up...

I stopped telling people to back up to CDROMs long ago.
Corporate or home user, most people DO NOT make
backups to CD. Hardly anybody actually does it, even
if you tell them how important it is.

External USB hard disk is more likely, but
just barely, in practice.

I don't charge people who cannot afford it, and in some cases only
charge for parts.  I use a sliding scale for low-income people, get full
price from others and from businesses.

We have at least one local charitable
organization that tunes up corporate castoff
computers and gives them to non-profits and
individuals who are genuine charity cases.

Hard drive prices are readily available through an online search....
look them up.  Surely you already know what a new hard drive costs.

Twice now when I said hard disk drive you added "new".

Varies.... anywhere from 30GB to 80 GB.  Everyone's data is valuable to
them personally.

So you thought that on a 30 to 80 GB drive it
was smart to delete Windows uninstall files?

Guarantee on what?  My work? Yes.  That they won't need a new drive
eventually?  Obviously not.  I image all my customers systems prior to
making any major changes, and keep the image on my external drives in
case they are needed in the future.

Neither risky nor substandard.... no waiver needed.  Any hard drive can
fail at any time.  Making more space on a small drive in good working
order is not particularly risky.  Removing backups to updates and SP's
is also not risky.  I have an image of their system before I begin.

Why would you do that if you think they already have backups?

Then those of my clients that are low-income won't
be asking for your help.... good for them.

As I mentioned above, there is a local outfit
that refurbs corporate castoffs and gives them
to charitable outfits or people who are genuine
charity cases.

I have trouble validating charity cases.
I've seen both well off people pretending they
can't afford a new hard disk drive, and I've
seen truly bad off people who are that way
because of addiction or wierd priorities or
just got a castoff computer and want to
get me to fix it up so they can sell it to feed
their bad behavior.

Yes, them too.  Just because the OEMs have the restoration partition on
the same, and usually only, hard drive as the OS doesn't mean it's a
good idea.  When the dive fails, the restoration partition is gone.
That's why most OEMs include an imaging app and usually suggest the user
make restore discs when they get the new machine.

I agree with most of this except you should know that
there are lots of people who need to reinstall windows
MANY times before their hard disk DIES.

Of course a detached clone backup is necessary.

A dead drive or bad virus infection necessitate that.

But a cloned system partition can solve
most messed up windows installs and
MUCH quicker and easier than rebuilding
the system from a detached hard drive.

I almost never have to use an image backup unless the drive has
physically failed and I need to clone from an image to a new drive.  I
and many of the techs I know can fix most problems with Windows without
having to use an image restoration, or even System Restore.  I always
have images available, but if you know what you are doing you don't
often need them.

How do you fix a garbaged up registry, Glen?

No, I didn't... you added that "if possible" you would *also* make a
backup to an external drive.... your primary comment was about cloning
to another partition on the same drive as the OS and data.  That is what
I clearly referred to.  I'm beginning to think you have a reading
comprehension problem, but perhaps English is not your first language
and you missed some of this... if that's the case, I will try to be more
clear if I can.

Well at least you're not accusing me of having
those savant superpowers!

Sociopaths, eh?  You are really showing your ignorance of the subject
now.  Have you worked with people with Asperger's?

I've come to believe that half the users on usenet are Aspies!

The very culture of usenet shows some signs of
having been formed by the Aspies population on usenet.

Except they are not.  A savant (autistic savant, or idiot savant as you
put it) is distinct from a person with Asperger's.  Although they both
fall into the autistic spectrum of disorders, only about 10% of people
with Asperger's are savants.  People with Asperger's often have "above
average IQ, unusual interest and capability in natural sciences, complex
calculations, computer programming or other areas of expertise which can
be extensive and expansive; marked genetic roots with strong family
histories of similar or related traits; early, rather than delayed,
language and word recognition skills; poor motor coordination; and a
generally higher level of social functioning than seen in Autistic
persons but still with unusual, peculiar and naive social interactions."
**

**http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/savant_faq.asp?name=Darold Tref....

"Naive social interactions" does not equal "sociopath".

You cited an ADVOCACY group, Glen, not a textbook.

I know a bit about the "dark side" of Aspies that advocates
would like to minimize.

As I said, they are NOT all like TV's "Sheldon Cooper".

 

[glee]

Your responses, particularly regarding low-income people and people with
Asperger's, are too prejudiced and idiotic for me to spend any more time
responding to your drivel. Enjoy yourself.

This is one of a number of threads that were posted only in the
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general group and answered there with a
series of replies, BEFORE you added a reply later, with excessive
cross-posting, which leaves all the cross-posted groups without any of
the previous responses. As in the other cases, the thread was answered
long before your cross-posted reply. There is no reason for you to do
that except for self-aggrandizement. Go back under your bridge.

 

[Greegor]

Your responses, particularly regarding low-income people and people with
Asperger's, are too prejudiced and idiotic for me to spend any more time
responding to your drivel.  Enjoy yourself.

Why are you so touchy about Aspergers, Glen?

This is one of a number of threads that were posted only in the
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general group and answered there with a
series of replies, BEFORE you added a reply later, with excessive
cross-posting, which leaves all the cross-posted groups without any of
the previous responses.  As in the other cases, the thread was answered
long before your cross-posted reply.  There is no reason for you to do
that except for self-aggrandizement.  Go back under your bridge.

Self aggrandizement on USENET? Surely you jest!

Glen Ventura
MS MVP  Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
CompTIA A+

Was that self aggrandizement, Glen?