Re: BSOD-Unmountable & others

Discussion in 'Windows XP Hardware' started by Daave, May 27, 2010.

  1. Daave

    Daave Guest

    (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)

    antioch wrote:
    > Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    > No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >
    > Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But
    > I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    > For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the same.
    > The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got through
    > that, more recently the Kernal_Stack_Inpage errors.
    >
    > This morning I could not start/boot the computer at first, but
    > eventually, more I think by luck than judgment, I got it to start and
    > all seemed fine. I went out and came back some hours later, having
    > left the computer on, only to find a BSOD with C0000218 Unknown hard
    > error. Did a restart and got the computer up and running.
    > Did a restart all OK.
    > Switched off then on and got a BSOD, the Kernal - well at least it
    > was anew one.
    >
    > Following troubleshooting in MS help and this newsgroup, I have tried
    > various methods and got the computer running again.
    > First tried the recovery console method but the press 'R' did not
    > activate and respond - had not previously either - last known etc did
    > not work previously either.
    > Did a restart - let it run all the way through - got to the little
    > blue train running through the tunnel - spent a couple of minutes at
    > least watching this, then got BSOD Unmountable again.
    > Restarted again, F8 and got the select boot device - inserted my OEM
    > XP disc - selected the hard drive hit enter and at last the chkdsk
    > started - it went through all phases, then it suddenly disappeared
    > and the computer went through the normal start sequence - I allowed
    > it to start with NORMAL XP - up came the welcome screen and all OK -
    > and so far I have been using the computer without any particular side
    > effects.
    > Since then I have done another dskchk from start/run - went through
    > all three phases until it got to 'verifying usn journal' - seemed to
    > hang there for a while then the window disappeared.
    > I have also run a scan for errors on C: via My Comp/Prop/Tools[is
    > this the same as chkdsk] - result was 'unable to complete' in the
    > third phase - no reason given - backed up all personal files, email,
    > favourites, address book etc.
    >
    > Currently I am scanning for any 'nasties' and I have a laptop with
    > which to keep in contact with the newsgroups.
    >
    > I will of course not know if I still have a BSOD problem until I
    > switch off later tonight. A restart was again OK.
    >
    > Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the HD
    > may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs in the
    > last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a clean install.


    I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.

    You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on the
    make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to build a
    bootable floppy or CD.
     
    Daave, May 27, 2010
    #1
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  2. Daave

    Antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:OnzdUIU$...
    > (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >
    > antioch wrote:
    >> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>
    >> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But
    >> I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the same.
    >> The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got through
    >> that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.


    CLIPPED

    >> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the HD
    >> may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs in the
    >> last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a clean install.

    >
    > I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >
    > You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on the
    > make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to build a
    > bootable floppy or CD.
    >

    Hi Daave
    I also think the HDD is gone
    I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that - could not
    find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing that indicated what
    I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup which I
    keep updated as and when the computer is running.

    Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.

    Antioch
     
    Antioch, May 27, 2010
    #2
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  3. Daave

    Daave Guest

    Antioch wrote:
    > "Daave" <> wrote in message
    > news:OnzdUIU$...
    >> (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >>
    >> antioch wrote:
    >>> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >>> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>>
    >>> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But
    >>> I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >>> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the
    >>> same. The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got
    >>> through that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.

    >
    > CLIPPED
    >
    >>> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the HD
    >>> may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs in the
    >>> last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a clean
    >>> install.

    >>
    >> I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >>
    >> You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on
    >> the make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to
    >> build a bootable floppy or CD.
    >>

    > Hi Daave
    > I also think the HDD is gone
    > I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that - could
    > not find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing that
    > indicated what I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    > I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup
    > which I keep updated as and when the computer is running.
    >
    > Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.


    YW. Chances are that SeaTools for DOS will be your ticket:

    http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...toid=720bd20cacdec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD
     
    Daave, May 27, 2010
    #3
  4. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:#1hQvAa$...
    > Antioch wrote:
    >> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >> news:OnzdUIU$...
    >>> (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >>>
    >>> antioch wrote:
    >>>> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >>>> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>>>
    >>>> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But
    >>>> I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >>>> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the
    >>>> same. The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got
    >>>> through that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.

    >>
    >> CLIPPED
    >>
    >>>> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the HD
    >>>> may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs in the
    >>>> last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a clean
    >>>> install.
    >>>
    >>> I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >>>
    >>> You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on
    >>> the make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to
    >>> build a bootable floppy or CD.
    >>>

    >> Hi Daave
    >> I also think the HDD is gone
    >> I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that - could
    >> not find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing that
    >> indicated what I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    >> I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup
    >> which I keep updated as and when the computer is running.
    >>
    >> Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.

    >
    > YW. Chances are that SeaTools for DOS will be your ticket:
    >
    > http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...toid=720bd20cacdec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD
    >

    I will see what they offer when I get reply - thanks for the link.

    Rgds
    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 27, 2010
    #4
  5. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:#1hQvAa$...
    > Antioch wrote:
    >> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >> news:OnzdUIU$...
    >>> (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >>>
    >>> antioch wrote:
    >>>> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >>>> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>>>
    >>>> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But
    >>>> I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >>>> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the
    >>>> same. The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got
    >>>> through that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.

    >>
    >> CLIPPED
    >>
    >>>> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the HD
    >>>> may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs in the
    >>>> last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a clean
    >>>> install.
    >>>
    >>> I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >>>
    >>> You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on
    >>> the make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to
    >>> build a bootable floppy or CD.
    >>>

    >> Hi Daave
    >> I also think the HDD is gone
    >> I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that - could
    >> not find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing that
    >> indicated what I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    >> I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup
    >> which I keep updated as and when the computer is running.
    >>
    >> Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.

    >
    > YW. Chances are that SeaTools for DOS will be your ticket:
    >
    > http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...toid=720bd20cacdec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD
    >

    Hi Daave
    I have at last been able to run the diag for Windows and the DOS one - both
    'passed' all checks/scans - no repair work done.
    I have also managed to get the computer up and running after - that was
    yesterday and reboot after reboot was OK. But today, the wretched thing
    will not reboot - in fact I cannot even boot with the XP disc loaded and
    during the Rec. Console performance, I can no longer perform a CHKDSK - KEEP
    GETTING 'PATH FILE NOT RECOGNISED/VALID' - in fact, nothing entered into the
    command line works where it has done before.
    So am no nearer finding out if the HDD is the problem or it is something
    else. For the moment I am not in mind to do a complete reinstall of
    Windows - if the HDD is the problem, then I am still stuck where I am now.
    I still have had no reply from my post in the Maxtor/Seagate forums.

    I have also been trying to find what is meant by 'A devise enclosed in
    parenthesis[brackets] has been disabled in the corresponding type menu',
    which appears in the Bios Setup Utility boot devise priority. I have read
    at least 30 Google links and nowhere does it explain what it means - it does
    appear though that this info is particular to ASUS MBs. But I can find no
    way to get rid of the brackets. Perhaps this is why I can no longer boot
    up.

    I have two columns -

    1st Boot Device [PM-ATPI iHAP322 9]
    2nd Boot Device [1st Floppy Drive]
    3rd Boot Device [3M-Maxtor 6L160MO]


    Thanks for the link - it directed me to both pieces of diag software.

    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #5
  6. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "Daave" <> wrote in message
    > news:#1hQvAa$...
    >> Antioch wrote:
    >>> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:OnzdUIU$...
    >>>> (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >>>>
    >>>> antioch wrote:
    >>>>> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >>>>> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer.
    >>>>> But I have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >>>>> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the
    >>>>> same. The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got
    >>>>> through that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.
    >>>
    >>> CLIPPED
    >>>
    >>>>> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the
    >>>>> HD may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs
    >>>>> in the last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a
    >>>>> clean install.
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >>>>
    >>>> You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on
    >>>> the make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to
    >>>> build a bootable floppy or CD.
    >>>>
    >>> Hi Daave
    >>> I also think the HDD is gone
    >>> I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that -
    >>> could not find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing
    >>> that indicated what I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    >>> I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup
    >>> which I keep updated as and when the computer is running.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.

    >>
    >> YW. Chances are that SeaTools for DOS will be your ticket:
    >>
    >> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...toid=720bd20cacdec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD
    >>

    > Hi Daave
    > I have at last been able to run the diag for Windows and the DOS one
    > - both 'passed' all checks/scans - no repair work done.
    > I have also managed to get the computer up and running after - that
    > was yesterday and reboot after reboot was OK. But today, the
    > wretched thing will not reboot - in fact I cannot even boot with the
    > XP disc loaded and during the Rec. Console performance, I can no
    > longer perform a CHKDSK - KEEP GETTING 'PATH FILE NOT
    > RECOGNISED/VALID' - in fact, nothing entered into the command line
    > works where it has done before. So am no nearer finding out if the HDD
    > is the problem or it is
    > something else. For the moment I am not in mind to do a complete
    > reinstall of Windows - if the HDD is the problem, then I am still
    > stuck where I am now. I still have had no reply from my post in the
    > Maxtor/Seagate forums.
    > I have also been trying to find what is meant by 'A devise enclosed in
    > parenthesis[brackets] has been disabled in the corresponding type
    > menu', which appears in the Bios Setup Utility boot devise priority. I
    > have read at least 30 Google links and nowhere does it explain what
    > it means - it does appear though that this info is particular to ASUS
    > MBs. But I can find no way to get rid of the brackets. Perhaps this
    > is why I can no longer boot up.
    >
    > I have two columns -
    >
    > 1st Boot Device [PM-ATPI iHAP322 9]
    > 2nd Boot Device [1st Floppy Drive]
    > 3rd Boot Device [3M-Maxtor 6L160MO]
    >
    >
    > Thanks for the link - it directed me to both pieces of diag software.


    [Please start with my last paragraph!]

    Assuming your disk is healthy (and that is a safe assumption if running
    SeaTools on the bootable floppy you made gave it a clean bill of
    health), you may very well need to do what Jose advised. Don't feel that
    you wasted your time. Best practice dictates that you check the health
    of your drive first. You now have the knowledge it is healthy. Of
    course, if nothing works, then you will need to perform a Clean Install.
    Hopefully, either chkdsk or a repair install will work. You could also
    perform what is popularly known as a manual system restore (going back
    to the time before you experienced these BSODs):

    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545

    When you do the above or the chkdsk and require the Recovery Console, it
    is imperative you configure your BIOS to boot off the CD rather than the
    usual hard drive. I see in one of your replies to Jose that you were
    having problems with the Recovery Console. Is it possible you has
    installed it on your hard drive and were using *that* version of it? Is
    it possible you didn't boot off the CD? If you have a genuine Windows XP
    installation CD, it comes with RC. If there is something wrong with the
    CD, you can certainly make your own bootable RC disk (Jose told you
    about that already).

    I suspect you are doing it incorrectly. There are two ways to perform
    chkdsk: One way is using the function from your XP installation
    currently on your hard drive. The other way is to us RC from the correct
    bootable CD (and making sure you are indeed booting off the CD!). You
    said you tried the command Jose gave you (chkdsk C: /R) and it didn't
    work. This indicates you did not boot off the RC CD. Keep in mind that
    if your present installation CD doesn't work, the bootable RC CD you can
    create should work.

    Speaking of...

    In your one post, you stated:

    "I have an OEM WIN XP DISC."

    What does that mean? What is the make and model of this PC? Please
    describe this CD *in detail*!

    I just re-read your post. The BIOS setup message is disturbing to say
    the least! Check all your connections; perhaps something came loose.
    Since this has been cross-posted to the hardware newsgroup, perhaps
    someone else can chime in with useful information. Otherwise, post to an
    ASUS motherboard Web forum. A Clean Install won't help if you have
    motherboard issues! Maybe all you did was inadvertantly temporarily
    disable one of your bootable devices.
     
    Daave, May 29, 2010
    #6
  7. Daave

    antioch Guest

    Hi Daave
    Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to you.

    Antioch

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:esQzRf0$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >> news:#1hQvAa$...
    >>> Antioch wrote:
    >>>> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:OnzdUIU$...
    >>>>> (cross-posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> antioch wrote:
    >>>>>> Win XP SP3 - currently updated. Win Live Mail, IE8.
    >>>>>> No recently ADDED HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE - seems important.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Sorry re the length of this thread - it could have been longer. But I
    >>>>>> have tried to keep it short and with the latest situation -
    >>>>>> For the last 24 hours I have had a series of BSODs - not all the
    >>>>>> same. The 2 today have been Unmountable_Boot_Volume and having got
    >>>>>> through that, more recently the Kernel_Stack_Inpage errors.
    >>>>
    >>>> CLIPPED
    >>>>
    >>>>>> Reading other posts/threads/forums etc I have a feeling that the
    >>>>>> HD may have a problem, seeing that I have had a variety of BSODs
    >>>>>> in the last 24 hours. So I am collating the best advice for a
    >>>>>> clean install.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I'm sure you need to replace the hard drive.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You can verify this by running the appropriate utility depending on
    >>>>> the make and model of the drive. You would need a working PC to
    >>>>> build a bootable floppy or CD.
    >>>>>
    >>>> Hi Daave
    >>>> I also think the HDD is gone
    >>>> I am waiting a reply from the Maxtor forum for advice on that -
    >>>> could not find anything on the Seagate/Maxtor site - well nothing
    >>>> that indicated what I needed/could use for a scan etc.
    >>>> I have the Windows XP CD+SP3+all updates on disc since SP3+backup
    >>>> which I keep updated as and when the computer is running.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks for the Xpost to hardware.
    >>>
    >>> YW. Chances are that SeaTools for DOS will be your ticket:
    >>>
    >>> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...toid=720bd20cacdec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD
    >>>

    >> Hi Daave
    >> I have at last been able to run the diag for Windows and the DOS one
    >> - both 'passed' all checks/scans - no repair work done.
    >> I have also managed to get the computer up and running after - that
    >> was yesterday and reboot after reboot was OK. But today, the
    >> wretched thing will not reboot - in fact I cannot even boot with the
    >> XP disc loaded and during the Rec. Console performance, I can no
    >> longer perform a CHKDSK - KEEP GETTING 'PATH FILE NOT
    >> RECOGNISED/VALID' - in fact, nothing entered into the command line
    >> works where it has done before. So am no nearer finding out if the HDD is
    >> the problem or it is
    >> something else. For the moment I am not in mind to do a complete
    >> reinstall of Windows - if the HDD is the problem, then I am still
    >> stuck where I am now. I still have had no reply from my post in the
    >> Maxtor/Seagate forums.
    >> I have also been trying to find what is meant by 'A devise enclosed in
    >> parenthesis[brackets] has been disabled in the corresponding type
    >> menu', which appears in the Bios Setup Utility boot devise priority. I
    >> have read at least 30 Google links and nowhere does it explain what
    >> it means - it does appear though that this info is particular to ASUS
    >> MBs. But I can find no way to get rid of the brackets. Perhaps this
    >> is why I can no longer boot up.
    >>
    >> I have two columns -
    >>
    >> 1st Boot Device [PM-ATPI iHAP322 9]
    >> 2nd Boot Device [1st Floppy Drive]
    >> 3rd Boot Device [3M-Maxtor 6L160MO]
    >>
    >>
    >> Thanks for the link - it directed me to both pieces of diag software.

    >
    > [Please start with my last paragraph!]
    >
    > Assuming your disk is healthy (and that is a safe assumption if running
    > SeaTools on the bootable floppy you made gave it a clean bill of health),
    > you may very well need to do what Jose advised. Don't feel that you wasted
    > your time. Best practice dictates that you check the health of your drive
    > first. You now have the knowledge it is healthy. Of course, if nothing
    > works, then you will need to perform a Clean Install. Hopefully, either
    > chkdsk or a repair install will work. You could also perform what is
    > popularly known as a manual system restore (going back to the time before
    > you experienced these BSODs):
    >
    > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545
    >
    > When you do the above or the chkdsk and require the Recovery Console, it
    > is imperative you configure your BIOS to boot off the CD rather than the
    > usual hard drive. I see in one of your replies to Jose that you were
    > having problems with the Recovery Console. Is it possible you has
    > installed it on your hard drive and were using *that* version of it? Is it
    > possible you didn't boot off the CD? If you have a genuine Windows XP
    > installation CD, it comes with RC. If there is something wrong with the
    > CD, you can certainly make your own bootable RC disk (Jose told you about
    > that already).
    >
    > I suspect you are doing it incorrectly. There are two ways to perform
    > chkdsk: One way is using the function from your XP installation currently
    > on your hard drive. The other way is to us RC from the correct bootable CD
    > (and making sure you are indeed booting off the CD!). You said you tried
    > the command Jose gave you (chkdsk C: /R) and it didn't work. This
    > indicates you did not boot off the RC CD. Keep in mind that if your
    > present installation CD doesn't work, the bootable RC CD you can create
    > should work.
    >
    > Speaking of...
    >
    > In your one post, you stated:
    >
    > "I have an OEM WIN XP DISC."
    >
    > What does that mean? What is the make and model of this PC? Please
    > describe this CD *in detail*!
    >
    > I just re-read your post. The BIOS setup message is disturbing to say the
    > least! Check all your connections; perhaps something came loose. Since
    > this has been cross-posted to the hardware newsgroup, perhaps someone else
    > can chime in with useful information. Otherwise, post to an ASUS
    > motherboard Web forum. A Clean Install won't help if you have motherboard
    > issues! Maybe all you did was inadvertantly temporarily disable one of
    > your bootable devices.
    >
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #7
  8. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "antioch" <> wrote in message
    news:eswHZt0$...
    > Hi Daave
    > Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to you.
    >
    > Antioch
    >

    I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc. with
    key code.
    It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.

    At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from CD -
    this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but alas not at the
    moment.

    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #8
  9. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "antioch" <> wrote in message
    > news:eswHZt0$...
    >> Hi Daave
    >> Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to you.
    >>
    >> Antioch
    >>

    > I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc.
    > with key code.
    > It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    > I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.
    >
    > At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from
    > CD - this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but
    > alas not at the moment.


    Are you sure you don't mean F1 or F2? Or Esc? Or Del? Those are the keys
    most commonly used to enter Setup (to configure your BIOS to boot from
    the CD). More info:

    http://michaelstevenstech.com/bios_manufacturer.htm

    F8 is used to enter the Windows menu for options such as Safe Mode and
    Last Known Good Configuration.

    Certain PCs allow you to choose a boot device without needing to enter
    Setup. For instance, many Dells allow you to press F12 to get such a
    menu.
     
    Daave, May 29, 2010
    #9
  10. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "antioch" <> wrote in message
    news:OUgOG90$...
    >
    > "antioch" <> wrote in message
    > news:eswHZt0$...
    >> Hi Daave
    >> Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to you.
    >>
    >> Antioch
    >>

    > I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc. with
    > key code.
    > It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    > I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.
    >
    > At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from CD -
    > this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but alas not at
    > the moment.
    >
    > Antioch


    Another quick update - I did that old trick - unplug - left it off for 30
    mins - came back - switched on and Windows has fired up in double quick
    time.
    But I know from previously, if I switch off[not unplug] it will not start.
    So while I have it running I will look through event viewer etc and see if a
    chkdsk works.
    I forgot to add the XP disc, it is not the retail type i.e. it is tied to my
    current computer which I had built to my specs 5 years ago. The difference
    between OEM and Retail genuine XP disc has been a regular topic in this
    newsgroup - the main difference being with an OEM I cannot install it on
    another computer - well not legally - but it is possible :)
    So for the moment, I am going back to re-read the post from Jose and follow
    the instructions there.
    I see you have not yet taken that leap of faith to Windows Live Mail and
    still on the OE6.
    I am using WLM - I miss OE 6 but now I am used to WLM I will not be going
    back.
    It is a big improvement to WM.

    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #10
  11. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:

    > Another quick update - I did that old trick - unplug - left it off
    > for 30 mins - came back - switched on and Windows has fired up in
    > double quick time.
    > But I know from previously, if I switch off[not unplug] it will not
    > start.


    What are your power settings set for? Do you use Hiberbnation or System
    Standby? Which method do you use to "switch off?"
     
    Daave, May 29, 2010
    #11
  12. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:OdHX6B1$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >> "antioch" <> wrote in message
    >> news:eswHZt0$...
    >>> Hi Daave
    >>> Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to you.
    >>>
    >>> Antioch
    >>>

    >> I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc.
    >> with key code.
    >> It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    >> I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.
    >>
    >> At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from
    >> CD - this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but
    >> alas not at the moment.

    >
    > Are you sure you don't mean F1 or F2? Or Esc? Or Del? Those are the keys
    > most commonly used to enter Setup (to configure your BIOS to boot from the
    > CD). More info:
    >
    > http://michaelstevenstech.com/bios_manufacturer.htm
    >
    > F8 is used to enter the Windows menu for options such as Safe Mode and
    > Last Known Good Configuration.
    >
    > Certain PCs allow you to choose a boot device without needing to enter
    > Setup. For instance, many Dells allow you to press F12 to get such a menu.
    >

    At the first screen - called set up I think - I have at the bottom of screen
    DEL TO RUN setup - TAB to enter BIOS.
    If I ignore that screen and go to the next I get the IDE scan - after that I
    get a window with F8 at the bottom - when I press that I get the Advanced
    Options menu which have not always allowed me a choice.
    However, if I press the F8 key at the IDE scan, I get a small coloured
    window with PLEASE SELECT BOOT DEVICE - 1ST FLOPPY -then PM-ATAPI[CD DRIVE]
    and lastly 3M MAXTOR[HDD].
    I think this is a sort of quick boot. You press arrows to select then enter
    or ESC to use defaults.

    This the order in which they are in the Bios.

    Hope I have explained this clearly.

    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #12
  13. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:uRi0$N1$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >
    >> Another quick update - I did that old trick - unplug - left it off
    >> for 30 mins - came back - switched on and Windows has fired up in
    >> double quick time.
    >> But I know from previously, if I switch off[not unplug] it will not
    >> start.

    >
    > What are your power settings set for? Do you use Hiberbnation or System
    > Standby? Which method do you use to "switch off?"
    >

    I do not know what the power settings are - are they in Bios - if so will
    get them later.
    Never use Hibernation or standby - I exit via Start/Turn off.
    I will be away from the computer for a while.

    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #13
  14. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "Daave" <> wrote in message
    > news:OdHX6B1$...
    >> antioch wrote:
    >>> "antioch" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:eswHZt0$...
    >>>> Hi Daave
    >>>> Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to
    >>>> you. Antioch
    >>>>
    >>> I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc.
    >>> with key code.
    >>> It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    >>> I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.
    >>>
    >>> At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from
    >>> CD - this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but
    >>> alas not at the moment.

    >>
    >> Are you sure you don't mean F1 or F2? Or Esc? Or Del? Those are the
    >> keys most commonly used to enter Setup (to configure your BIOS to
    >> boot from the CD). More info:
    >>
    >> http://michaelstevenstech.com/bios_manufacturer.htm
    >>
    >> F8 is used to enter the Windows menu for options such as Safe Mode
    >> and Last Known Good Configuration.
    >>
    >> Certain PCs allow you to choose a boot device without needing to
    >> enter Setup. For instance, many Dells allow you to press F12 to get
    >> such a menu.

    > At the first screen - called set up I think - I have at the bottom of
    > screen DEL TO RUN setup - TAB to enter BIOS.
    > If I ignore that screen and go to the next I get the IDE scan - after
    > that I get a window with F8 at the bottom - when I press that I get
    > the Advanced Options menu which have not always allowed me a choice.
    > However, if I press the F8 key at the IDE scan, I get a small coloured
    > window with PLEASE SELECT BOOT DEVICE - 1ST FLOPPY -then PM-ATAPI[CD
    > DRIVE] and lastly 3M MAXTOR[HDD].
    > I think this is a sort of quick boot. You press arrows to select
    > then enter or ESC to use defaults.
    >
    > This the order in which they are in the Bios.
    >
    > Hope I have explained this clearly.


    If your CD drive already has a higher priority than your hard drive in
    the BIOS settings for boot order, then there is no need to press
    *anything* when you boot up. That is, if you turn the PC on, does it
    boot off the CD? If you are running off the XP installation CD, you
    should see this screen:

    http://www.pcxmedics.com/blog/images/clean-install-xp-1.jpg

    Do you?

    What is the make and model of your motherboard?
     
    Daave, May 29, 2010
    #14
  15. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:Oi6IOO2$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >> "Daave" <> wrote in message
    >> news:OdHX6B1$...
    >>> antioch wrote:
    >>>> "antioch" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:eswHZt0$...
    >>>>> Hi Daave
    >>>>> Many thanks - I will read your reply with care and come back to
    >>>>> you. Antioch
    >>>>>
    >>>> I forgot to add that I have a genuine Microsoft Windows XP SP2 disc.
    >>>> with key code.
    >>>> It is not a bootable OEM from the computer builder.
    >>>> I have been able to get into R.C. and have performed recovery.
    >>>>
    >>>> At startup I have an immediate choice after tapping F8 to boot from
    >>>> CD - this has been working OK hence my ability to do chkdsk - but
    >>>> alas not at the moment.
    >>>
    >>> Are you sure you don't mean F1 or F2? Or Esc? Or Del? Those are the
    >>> keys most commonly used to enter Setup (to configure your BIOS to
    >>> boot from the CD). More info:
    >>>
    >>> http://michaelstevenstech.com/bios_manufacturer.htm
    >>>
    >>> F8 is used to enter the Windows menu for options such as Safe Mode
    >>> and Last Known Good Configuration.
    >>>
    >>> Certain PCs allow you to choose a boot device without needing to
    >>> enter Setup. For instance, many Dells allow you to press F12 to get
    >>> such a menu.

    >> At the first screen - called set up I think - I have at the bottom of
    >> screen DEL TO RUN setup - TAB to enter BIOS.
    >> If I ignore that screen and go to the next I get the IDE scan - after
    >> that I get a window with F8 at the bottom - when I press that I get
    >> the Advanced Options menu which have not always allowed me a choice.
    >> However, if I press the F8 key at the IDE scan, I get a small coloured
    >> window with PLEASE SELECT BOOT DEVICE - 1ST FLOPPY -then PM-ATAPI[CD
    >> DRIVE] and lastly 3M MAXTOR[HDD].
    >> I think this is a sort of quick boot. You press arrows to select
    >> then enter or ESC to use defaults.
    >>
    >> This the order in which they are in the Bios.
    >>
    >> Hope I have explained this clearly.

    >
    > If your CD drive already has a higher priority than your hard drive in the
    > BIOS settings for boot order, then there is no need to press *anything*
    > when you boot up. That is, if you turn the PC on, does it boot off the CD?
    > If you are running off the XP installation CD, you should see this screen:
    >
    > http://www.pcxmedics.com/blog/images/clean-install-xp-1.jpg
    >
    > Do you?
    >
    > What is the make and model of your motherboard?
    >

    Boot order in Bios is floppy, HDD then CD Rom. The order in that small
    coloured window which I get with F8 at the IDE scan is in no particular
    order - its just there to select.
    I have put the ISO disc in and started the boot - I get no 'press any key to
    boot from CD.....'
    But if I pick CD from that coloured window, I do get that prompt.
    I also get the same result with the WIN XP disc in the computer. The only
    variance is at the end of the Rec. Con activity - as to what I can/cannot
    enter in the command line.
    So I would conclude that of course the CD does not have a higher priority
    boot in the bios - as I believe they are the default settings as I mentioned
    above.

    Oh, nearly forgot - yes I can also use DEL at the first screen to enter
    setup - then I go to BOOT in the menu. But I do not like going to places
    where I have no idea what I am doing - bit like the registry.
    To me it appears that it matters not what disc is in there - they booth
    require CD boot to be selected and both behave erratically in the Rec. Con.
    Hope that answers all your question.
    MB is an Asus P5LD2.

    FOR INFO OF JOSE - sorry to include here in my reply to Daave -

    I have tried to run command prompt chkdsk C: /r - it will not accept it with
    the ISO disc/nor the XP disc. - only on CHKDSK will it run..

    "Remove the CD and type 'exit' to leave the RC and restart the
    computer." You can only eject the CD after you exit, not before.

    "If you still have a BSOD................." When I get it, it is now only
    the 'unmountable' - none as yet of the others.

    "Download BlueScreenView from here:" Thanks - a very handy gadget.

    The XP disc I have is for install, repair, recovery amongst other things - I
    have used it many times to get small files for
    repair/replace/missing/corrupt.

    As I have said before, I cannot enter the chkdsk C: /r - it matters not
    which disc I use. Then why is that not an option in the help command
    lines????
    But just to confirm I get this at the command line C:\ > - what I can type
    in there is I am afraid hit and miss, and if something does take then more
    often than not I get 'the path or file specified is not valid'. Perhaps I
    am not typing the entry properly but I have tried many ways.
    The last Rec Con I ran I was able to do CHKDSK [not with the 'r'] - refused
    it.
    At the end I got 'the volume appears to contain one or more unrecoverable
    errors.
    I entered exit - rebooted and up fired windows - but then this has been
    happening for no logical reason. So I do not dare to Turn Off because I
    know it will not come back again on restart.

    Sorry re the delay with covering all your points/questions and advice - it
    has been much appreciated. I hope I have done them to the letter - sorry if
    the results have been a negative.

    Many thanks you you both - your time and patience is appreciated - I am NOT
    looking forward to going back to those archaic/cranky web interface
    discussion groups.

    Rgds
    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 29, 2010
    #15
  16. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "Daave" <> wrote in message


    >> If your CD drive already has a higher priority than your hard drive
    >> in the BIOS settings for boot order, then there is no need to press
    >> *anything* when you boot up. That is, if you turn the PC on, does it
    >> boot off the CD? If you are running off the XP installation CD, you
    >> should see this screen:
    >> http://www.pcxmedics.com/blog/images/clean-install-xp-1.jpg
    >>
    >> Do you?
    >>
    >> What is the make and model of your motherboard?
    >>

    > Boot order in Bios is floppy, HDD then CD Rom. The order in that
    > small coloured window which I get with F8 at the IDE scan is in no
    > particular order - its just there to select.
    > I have put the ISO disc in and started the boot - I get no 'press any
    > key to boot from CD.....'
    > But if I pick CD from that coloured window, I do get that prompt.
    > I also get the same result with the WIN XP disc in the computer. The
    > only variance is at the end of the Rec. Con activity - as to what I
    > can/cannot enter in the command line.
    > So I would conclude that of course the CD does not have a higher
    > priority boot in the bios - as I believe they are the default
    > settings as I mentioned above.


    I think you are getting too hung up on this F8 IDE scan.

    You need to simplify this process!

    Just place the CD ahead of the hard drive in the boot order. If there is
    no CD in the drive, then it will boot off the hard drive anyway.
    Furthermore, you can always undo the change. It is simple and safe (as
    long as you don't purposefully change other settings).

    > Oh, nearly forgot - yes I can also use DEL at the first screen to
    > enter setup - then I go to BOOT in the menu.


    This is what you need to do! Then make the CD-ROM drive the first (or
    second) priority (as long as it precedes the HDD).

    > But I do not like going
    > to places where I have no idea what I am doing - bit like the
    > registry.


    This is basic. If it really bothers you that much, you should find a
    tech to do this for you. But if you reconsider, simply jot down all the
    BIOS settings. This is way you have a record of them in case you ever
    need to reset them.

    > To me it appears that it matters not what disc is in there - they
    > booth require CD boot to be selected and both behave erratically in
    > the Rec. Con. Hope that answers all your question.


    The erratic behavior should disappear once you act upon my suggestion.
    :)

    > MB is an Asus P5LD2.


    When I have more time, I will look into this motherboard and the F8 IDE
    scan you mention.

    Finally, there is no such thing as an ISO disc. Perhaps you mean the
    bootable RC disc you created based on an .iso file you downloaded? If
    this is the case, it is imperative that you burn it the correct way with
    the correct software. Many people make the common mistake of simply
    burning (i.e., copying) the file onto the CD. Which method and software
    did you use?
     
    Daave, May 29, 2010
    #16
  17. Daave

    antioch Guest

    Replies are intertwined - the computer crashed out about an hour ago - since
    then I have not been able to revive it.
    Rgds
    Antioch

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:uQ$u5G4$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >> "Daave" <> wrote in message

    >
    >>> If your CD drive already has a higher priority than your hard drive
    >>> in the BIOS settings for boot order, then there is no need to press
    >>> *anything* when you boot up. That is, if you turn the PC on, does it
    >>> boot off the CD? If you are running off the XP installation CD, you
    >>> should see this screen:
    >>> http://www.pcxmedics.com/blog/images/clean-install-xp-1.jpg
    >>>
    >>> Do you?
    >>>
    >>> What is the make and model of your motherboard?
    >>>

    >> Boot order in Bios is floppy, HDD then CD Rom. The order in that
    >> small coloured window which I get with F8 at the IDE scan is in no
    >> particular order - its just there to select.
    >> I have put the ISO disc in and started the boot - I get no 'press any
    >> key to boot from CD.....'
    >> But if I pick CD from that coloured window, I do get that prompt.
    >> I also get the same result with the WIN XP disc in the computer. The
    >> only variance is at the end of the Rec. Con activity - as to what I
    >> can/cannot enter in the command line.
    >> So I would conclude that of course the CD does not have a higher
    >> priority boot in the bios - as I believe they are the default
    >> settings as I mentioned above.

    >
    > I think you are getting too hung up on this F8 IDE scan.


    "I am not getting hung up on anything to do with the F8 button - that's what
    I do to boot from a CD - The time I pick is when it needs to be done - the
    IDE scan is so fast you can hardly read it. I don't have to keep going into
    the Bios - easy and simple."

    > You need to simplify this process!
    >
    > Just place the CD ahead of the hard drive in the boot order. If there is
    > no CD in the drive, then it will boot off the hard drive anyway.
    > Furthermore, you can always undo the change. It is simple and safe (as
    > long as you don't purposefully change other settings).


    "Previously to this post I had already tried the below.
    I have gone into the Bios and have moved the CD drive to show as follows -
    1st Boot Device [PM-ATAPI iHAP322 9]
    Rebooted and all went OK until I got to the bit where you enter chkdsk /r -
    got file path not valid.
    Tried chkdsk - went through quite quickly and reported as usual there were
    one or more errors.
    exit out - auto reboot - windows welcome did show but after the little train
    had passed through about 20 times, got the unmounted error.
    Tried a second time - this time the chksk /r worked - only the second time
    it has - five minutes later at 1%
    it reported that there were unrecoverable errors etc - on reboot it got to
    the start to dll XP up came disc read erro - 'ctrl-alt-delete to restart'.
    On restart I got a notification after XP tried to load to the welcome
    screen, error win root system32\hal.dll missing or corrupt.

    Previous to this new approach with the boot order altered in the Bios, on
    one of many attempts to get the system up and running I got another error
    code - \SYSTEM ROOT\SYSTEM32\ntdl.dll missing. I had that ntdl at the
    beginning of all this.

    I am currently on the third run - it has been 20 minutes on 25% completed -
    the active light is on continual - no flickering."


    >> Oh, nearly forgot - yes I can also use DEL at the first screen to
    >> enter setup - then I go to BOOT in the menu.

    >
    > This is what you need to do! Then make the CD-ROM drive the first (or
    > second) priority (as long as it precedes the HDD).
    >
    >> But I do not like going
    >> to places where I have no idea what I am doing - bit like the
    >> registry.

    >
    > This is basic. If it really bothers you that much, you should find a tech
    > to do this for you. But if you reconsider, simply jot down all the BIOS
    > settings. This is way you have a record of them in case you ever need to
    > reset them.
    >
    >> To me it appears that it matters not what disc is in there - they
    >> booth require CD boot to be selected and both behave erratically in
    >> the Rec. Con. Hope that answers all your question.

    >
    > The erratic behavior should disappear once you act upon my suggestion. :)


    It has not :-( as yet.
    >
    >> MB is an Asus P5LD2.

    >
    > When I have more time, I will look into this motherboard and the F8 IDE
    > scan you mention.
    >
    > Finally, there is no such thing as an ISO disc. Perhaps you mean the
    > bootable RC disc you created based on an .iso file you downloaded? If this
    > is the case, it is imperative that you burn it the correct way with the
    > correct software. Many people make the common mistake of simply burning
    > (i.e., copying) the file onto the CD. Which method and software did you
    > use?


    "As per Jose's links - bleeping and their free burner. No, I did not 'copy
    it"
    It has been over an hour now and its time to retire - will get it going
    again in the morning.
    As I was typing this last bit, I cancelled the chkdsk, the machine rebooted
    and went straight into the desktop without as much as a whimper - this is
    getting more and more ridiculous.

    Rgds
    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 30, 2010
    #17
  18. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "Previously to this post I had already tried the below.
    > I have gone into the Bios and have moved the CD drive to show as
    > follows - 1st Boot Device [PM-ATAPI iHAP322 9]
    > Rebooted and all went OK until I got to the bit where you enter
    > chkdsk /r - got file path not valid.
    > Tried chkdsk - went through quite quickly and reported as usual there
    > were one or more errors.
    > exit out - auto reboot - windows welcome did show but after the
    > little train had passed through about 20 times, got the unmounted
    > error. Tried a second time - this time the chksk /r worked - only the
    > second
    > time it has - five minutes later at 1%
    > it reported that there were unrecoverable errors etc - on reboot it
    > got to the start to dll XP up came disc read erro - 'ctrl-alt-delete
    > to restart'. On restart I got a notification after XP tried to load
    > to the welcome screen, error win root system32\hal.dll missing or
    > corrupt.


    How is your hard drive partitioned? Is Windows on C:?

    What is the *exact* message with regard to the path not being valid? Is
    autochk.exe referenced?
     
    Daave, May 30, 2010
    #18
  19. Daave

    antioch Guest

    "Daave" <> wrote in message
    news:eToph45$...
    > antioch wrote:
    >> "Previously to this post I had already tried the below.
    >> I have gone into the Bios and have moved the CD drive to show as
    >> follows - 1st Boot Device [PM-ATAPI iHAP322 9]
    >> Rebooted and all went OK until I got to the bit where you enter
    >> chkdsk /r - got file path not valid.
    >> Tried chkdsk - went through quite quickly and reported as usual there
    >> were one or more errors.
    >> exit out - auto reboot - windows welcome did show but after the
    >> little train had passed through about 20 times, got the unmounted
    >> error. Tried a second time - this time the chksk /r worked - only the
    >> second
    >> time it has - five minutes later at 1%
    >> it reported that there were unrecoverable errors etc - on reboot it
    >> got to the start to dll XP up came disc read erro - 'ctrl-alt-delete
    >> to restart'. On restart I got a notification after XP tried to load
    >> to the welcome screen, error win root system32\hal.dll missing or
    >> corrupt.

    >
    > How is your hard drive partitioned? Is Windows on C:?
    >
    > What is the *exact* message with regard to the path not being valid? Is
    > autochk.exe referenced?
    >

    As expected, the computer did not start - got the 'unmountable' error.
    I have just the C drive - no partition - confirmed as I only get offered 1.
    C:\WINDOWS>
    and underneath I am told I can type exit
    1st run - This morning, as soon as I type chkdsk after the 1. option, it
    tells me immediately that 'the volume appears to contain one or more
    unrecoverable problems. Nothing new there except it has told me this after
    it has done a chkdsk.
    typing in autochk produces the usual 'The command is not recognised. Type
    help for list. It is not in the list of commands.
    All the 'boot cfg' options tell me 'Failed to successfully scan disks for
    Windows Installations. This error may be caused by a corrupt file system,
    which would prevent bootcfg from scanning. Use chkdsk to detect any disk
    errors.'
    As a result I cannot add/rebuild etc.
    At the moment, if I type anything else in the command line I get 'this
    command is not recognised - type help for list'
    2nd run - at the REC Con window the entry is slightly different - there is
    the informative bit is the same, but I then have -
    The path or file specified is not valid.
    C:\>
    If I add chkdsk I get 'The specified path is not valid or there is no disk
    in the drive'
    If I add any of the boot choices I am again told that it cannot perform due
    to corrupt system - as before. The same for autochk.
    Rgds
    Antioch
     
    antioch, May 30, 2010
    #19
  20. Daave

    Daave Guest

    antioch wrote:
    > "Daave" <> wrote in message
    > news:uRi0$N1$...
    >> antioch wrote:
    >>
    >>> Another quick update - I did that old trick - unplug - left it off
    >>> for 30 mins - came back - switched on and Windows has fired up in
    >>> double quick time.
    >>> But I know from previously, if I switch off[not unplug] it will not
    >>> start.

    >>
    >> What are your power settings set for? Do you use Hiberbnation or
    >> System Standby? Which method do you use to "switch off?"
    >>

    > I do not know what the power settings are - are they in Bios - if so
    > will get them later.
    > Never use Hibernation or standby - I exit via Start/Turn off.
    > I will be away from the computer for a while.


    No, not the BIOS settings. I was referring to the Windows XP settings,
    accessible by:

    (right-clicking on an unused area on the desktop)

    Display Properties | Screen Saver | Power

    (and then later, the Advanced tab)
     
    Daave, Jun 1, 2010
    #20
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