RAID and MOBO and IDE

[Robert J. Stevens]

I bought a PCI Ultra 100 Raid card awhile back but have never used it.
What would be the best Pentium I [233mhz] board to use and will it run
if using the IDE connectors as well.
Bob in Wisconsin

 

[kony]

I bought a PCI Ultra 100 Raid card awhile back but have never used it.
What would be the best Pentium I [233mhz] board to use and will it run
if using the IDE connectors as well.
Bob in Wisconsin

If I'm understanding your intentions correctly, that so far you only
have the IDE card (and possibly the CPU) and no motherboard yet, then
I'd suggest a Super-7 motherboard, possibly an Asus P5A if you want a
particular make/model recommendation, but just about any would do,
depending on whether you already have spare memory and/or case for
this system, you could seek an appropriate board to match the
components you already have.

I suggest Super-7 because it's not as old, perhaps easier to find a
new board or an old board won't be AS old, as worn out. As for cost
it's just a matter of what you're lucky enough to find, many boards
this age are being retired, given or thrown away, or sold very cheaply
at local mom-n-pop computer shops. However, many of the Super-7
boards are somewhat picky about the cards you install. FOr example
ALI chipset super-7 boards often had problems with TNT (or it might've
been TNT2) video cards. I've not heard of any problems with any of
them running PCI IDE controller cards, but you might check for a BIOS
update for whatever you find, as the older it gets the harder it might
be to find a BIOS upgrade if one is needed or beneficial in any way.

Also a Super 7 board will accomodate more, (including more cached)
PC100 memory, have greater performance per it's chipset than older
boards, and "typically" uses an ATX power supply, which are also more
readily available and quite inexpensive for a lower wattage model as
you'd need (providing you aren't using TOO many hard drives you won't
need a high capacity power supply, I usually allow 2A capacity on 12V
rail per each HDD though in a pinch you can usually get by allowing
even less).

The motherboard, system, should run fine from the onboard IDE
connectors while the PCI IDE controller card is also in use. You'll
end up with additional IDE channels which do not replace but rather
supplement the originals.


Dave

 

[Jim Turner]

He said Pentium. Super7 boards 100mhz boards used with AMD and Cyrix
processors. They were the answer to Intel's porprietary Pentium 2 slot 1
architecture which was not made available to competitors of Intel. I fhis
processor is a Pentium 233 he needs a 66mhz socket 7 pentium-compatible
board. A super7 will not work.

Every super7 board I ever worked with (ASUS, Soyo, Epox, even PC
Chips) will also slow down to do any other socket 7 processor. Have
used a pentium 133, 166, 200, 166mmx, 200mmx, 233mmx, etc on various
super7 boards for any number of reasons including upgrades and
testing. He just needs to set the proper clock (66mhz) and multiplier
(3.5) using the jumpers on the board.

 

[Firebird81]

BUt if he does that he has to deal with the Super7 problems, whereas if he
goes with an intel board they were quite a bit more stable.And there's no
added benefit of the Super7 board when slowed down to 66mhz to begin with.

 

[kony]

BUt if he does that he has to deal with the Super7 problems, whereas if he
goes with an intel board they were quite a bit more stable.And there's no
added benefit of the Super7 board when slowed down to 66mhz to begin with.

We're looking at two types of info here, generalities and specifics...

In general, a Super-7 board will run an earlier Pentium processor.
Specifically, some boards are more versatile than others when it comes
to tweaking the voltage, multiplier, etc.

In general, the build quality of socket 7 was higher because at the
time it was the high-end PC platform, while Super-7 was a value
platform. This generality is very often incorrect though, there were
many good and bad boards in both eras. Today we have hindsight and
can better judge a board's quality, compatiblity, bugs, features, etc,
so given enough time to wade though the info, a good choice can be
made IF these boards can be found. While there were some
compatibility issues with Super-7 boards, it's important to remember
that those AGP and PCI devices having compatibility problems weren't
necessarily "more compatible" with the older non-super platform, but
rather were more compatible with the Intel alternative of the time,
the BX chipset.

To say the Super-7 boards were instable is incorrect, there was
nothing inherant in the technology that causes instability, but if a
poor board or poor power supply, memory, etc, were used to build a
low-end system (as often happened) then of course stability might
suffer. There were some really nasty pre-super-7 and BX boards too.

There is much benefit to running a Pentium processor on a Super-7
board if a decent board is used. Putting a Pentium CPU in a Super-7
board will almost always result in higher performance than the older
platform.

Here are a few benefits of Super 7:

----------------------------------------------

Super-7 usually allowed undervolting the CPU, so it's possible to run
it passively cooled given the right CPU.

FSB of 100MHz is supported. Many Pentiums could run on 100Mhz FSB
with suitable lowered multiplier.

Low (and somtimes high) density PC100 memory could be used, making it
possible to run 256MB or more cached, higher-performance memory,
cheaper.

Onboard L2 cache chips were more mature, could run faster timings per
MHz, so a Super-7 board could in theory have higher L2 cache
performance at same FSB MHz as the older non-Super boards.

UATA always supported, and last generation boards even supported
ATA66, and of course higher capacity HDD.

They are newer, not as near the end of their expected lifespan... all
boards "wear out" eventually.

AGP slot, AGP video useage will reduce PCI bus usage. A PCI video card
is always using the PCI bus, reduces throughput of IDE controllers.

Pntentially reduced energy usage and cooler running- Super-7 boards
always used switching voltage regulators for CPU power, and "usually"
made use of 3.3V power from power supply for other components. In
contrast, many non-super boards used linear regulators for CPU power,
and even when they were switching regulators, often the memory
regulators for SDRAM were still linear, having to reduce to 3.3V from
5V. Also the AGP video allows 3.3V power instead of regulation down
from 5V. Add to this the evolution of power management and as a whole
it could be expected that a Super-7 board would use less energy,
create less heat, per same performance.


Whether these benefits are enough to choose one platform over the
other certainly depends on the role of the system, and budget,
availability of parts... If someone already had a box full of SIMMs
and an AT case, power supply, that might be a good enough reason to
build a non-super Pentium box, but on the other hand it's not too hard
or expensive to find old ATX cases, low-wattage power supplies, and
smaller SDRAM memory modules... rightabout now these parts are being
thrown away.



Dave

 

[Jim Turner]

You stated a Super 7 board wouldn't work, which is just not the case.

Many socket 7 boards were not Intel chipset boards, and worked just
fine. Having a non-super socket 7 board is no guarantee of Intel
chipset

I have several customers still running super 7 boards. Once set up
properly, they work just fine no matter which processor (well, the
Cyrix were a bit flakey) is used. I have installed windows 95,98,NT,2k
on them successfully. Still have one that has Win2k Server installed
on it for testing of some applications that don't need much speed,
etc.. Super 7 boards require some work to set up properly, but that is
true of many of the older Intel chipset boards as well.

There is one advantage to the super 7 board still. The AGP slot allows
use of better video cards. Also, most of them would cache more than 64
meg of ram, some up to 256meg. That can be a big performance boost in
some situations. An Intel 233mmx on a super 7 board with 256meg of ram
and a decent AGP video card is still a viable business workstation for
many situations.

 

[Firebird81]

Both Ali and Via had bad problems with the AGP port, tho. Instability was
never an issue with any Super7 board I used aside from the AGP port, however
Via had enough problems with AGP, but ALI was absolutely horrid. It took
several revisions to get it up and running decently and for several months
there in the beginning a lot of folks were stuck using PCI cards. Those
problems will still be there in many of the Super7 boards he would find,
IMHO, and he would have to go thru all of the headaches. I realize the
problems were addressed, but the fact they were there to begin with means
potential headaches, which coming from a business environment, I would
avoid. Honestly , he could find an old Athlon/mobo combo for the same price
these days as well, it'd be much more trustworthy and better performing. My
recommendation for the intel board was not an assumption that all pentium
boards were made by intel, but from experience with the reliability of Intel
mobos from that generation. Whatever you say about Intel ( and I hate them
too--all my stuff is AMD), their chipsets have usually been pretty reliable.

 

[Robert J. Stevens]

You stated a Super 7 board wouldn't work, which is just not the case.

Many socket 7 boards were not Intel chipset boards, and worked just fine.
Having a non-super socket 7 board is no guarantee of Intel chipset

I have several customers still running super 7 boards. Once set up properly,
they work just fine no matter which processor (well, the Cyrix were a bit
flakey) is used. I have installed windows 95,98,NT,2k on them successfully.
Still have one that has Win2k Server installed on it for testing of some
applications that don't need much speed, etc.. Super 7 boards require some work
to set up properly, but that is true of many of the older Intel chipset boards
as well.

There is one advantage to the super 7 board still. The AGP slot allows use of
better video cards. Also, most of them would cache more than 64 meg of ram,
some up to 256meg. That can be a big performance boost in some situations. An
Intel 233mmx on a super 7 board with 256meg of ram
and a decent AGP video card is still a viable business workstation for many
situations.

FROM OP.
I am running a few PUTERS. My Main one is a Pentium I running a 233mhz W/Win98SE;
with a 3.2 HD plus SCSI and a 800 mb D: and a 3.2 partioned as E: F:. I use
removable Drive Bays for most of the Drives. cept the SCSI and D:. I have a
removable SCSI. I tried to move up to a PII awhile back but got a bad board kudnt
get my drives to boot. I try to keep a spare Machine available. I would like to
try somekind of a mirror setup. I try to make a XXCOPY every week end of C:
[XXCOPY creates a bootable backup] I have two other P-I's running and a real
motley crew of older machines and Boards. Got two XT's and 2 AT's on an old
printer stand. Fire them up every so often to keep them running. I got a 386-25
running as a breadboard right now. Trying to run Teledisk to swap programs for my
Kay-Pro II. Got a few 486's boards that work. A Few Power supplies AT&ATX ; So I
can put together almost any Configuration I want. Got four CP/M Machines in the
PUTER Room down stairs. 2 Compu-Pro's and a Northstar and a Tarbell. I got a few
Apples in the Garage [2E;2C;2C+;2GS plus a couple older Macs]. I cut my Eye Teeth
on a UNIVAC I [Safeway in Seattle, WA] in 1955; more fun than a tribe of monkeys.
Everything was round hole punches and all the U-I cud do was +,-,*,/.
Really got into it in the 60's been at it ever since
Bob in Wisconsin

 

[Jim Turner]

Both Ali and Via had bad problems with the AGP port, tho. Instability was
never an issue with any Super7 board I used aside from the AGP port, however
Via had enough problems with AGP, but ALI was absolutely horrid. It took
several revisions to get it up and running decently and for several months
there in the beginning a lot of folks were stuck using PCI cards. Those
problems will still be there in many of the Super7 boards he would find,
IMHO, and he would have to go thru all of the headaches. I realize the
problems were addressed, but the fact they were there to begin with means
potential headaches, which coming from a business environment, I would
avoid. Honestly , he could find an old Athlon/mobo combo for the same price
these days as well, it'd be much more trustworthy and better performing. My
recommendation for the intel board was not an assumption that all pentium
boards were made by intel, but from experience with the reliability of Intel
mobos from that generation. Whatever you say about Intel ( and I hate them
too--all my stuff is AMD), their chipsets have usually been pretty reliable.

When you say it is probably more trouble than it is worth, I agree
unless someone just wants a system to experiment on. Problem is you
flat said "it won't work", which is wrong.

Given a choice, I would avoid all socket/super 7 boards except for the
very latest ones.for a number of reasons. Have thrown away more enough
bad boards with with Intel FX, VX, and NX chipsets. Intel didn't
really get cache control and SDRAM right until the TX chipset. PCChips
and their aliases flooded the market with cheap, unstable, junk using
the VX and TX chipsets. Intel chipset is no guarantee of a good board,
even today.