New Pigment Printers...

Discussion in 'Printers' started by frederick, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. frederick

    frederick Guest

    A3+ sizes from Canon and HP...
    10 colour from Canon, 8 colour from HP.
    And a replacement from Canon for i9900/9500, now with Chromalife 100 dye
    (looks like a big iP8500)
    Great stuff - some competition at last for Epson at the high end of
    consumer / small pro photo printers.
     
    frederick, Feb 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. frederick

    bmoag Guest

    The problem with Canon is that thier color management protocols in recent
    driver generations are not as reliable as Epson's. Also Canon manufactures
    an exceedingly limited, basically 2, paper types with which they include
    profiles with their printer drivers. This is hardly competition at the high
    end for Epson, even if Canon puts 256 different color inks in their
    printers.
     
    bmoag, Feb 24, 2006
    #2
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  3. frederick

    rafe b Guest

    On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:09:41 GMT, "bmoag" <> wrote:

    >The problem with Canon is that thier color management protocols in recent
    >driver generations are not as reliable as Epson's. Also Canon manufactures
    >an exceedingly limited, basically 2, paper types with which they include
    >profiles with their printer drivers. This is hardly competition at the high
    >end for Epson, even if Canon puts 256 different color inks in their
    >printers.



    Canon would certainly love to have a piece of
    Epson's market, but so far they've made a few
    stupid moves.

    The print driver on my Canon S9000 was a joke.
    In a word: condescending, to the max. They
    seem bent on hiding any detail that might
    confuse or upset the clueless newbie user.

    There was some issue with Canon's error-diffusion
    or dithering algorithm that creates a very fine
    micro-banding -- not just on my printer but on
    almost every other comparable machine that I was
    able to observe.

    By contrast, the driver on my Epson R1800 is
    a gem; support for ICC-based color management
    is simple, straightforward, and thoroughly
    documented in the user manual. Plus, Epson
    provides a large collection of great ICC
    profiles, at no charge, on their website.


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Feb 24, 2006
    #3
  4. frederick

    frederick Guest

    bmoag wrote:
    > The problem with Canon is that thier color management protocols in recent
    > driver generations are not as reliable as Epson's. Also Canon manufactures
    > an exceedingly limited, basically 2, paper types with which they include
    > profiles with their printer drivers. This is hardly competition at the high
    > end for Epson, even if Canon puts 256 different color inks in their
    > printers.
    >
    >

    The proof will be in the pudding. Many serious Epson users use other
    than Epson papers, and many Canon users actually use Epson papers,
    despite the poor longevity of that combination. The new HP printer
    comes with some profiles, and even some display permanence rating
    figures for high quality third-party papers other than HP "advanced" -
    which is probably the only suitable photo paper in HP's present range.
    Within the limitations of dye inks, both Canon and HP have produced some
    great consumer/home photo printers - and you will find many a review in
    PC magazines etc, where the significance of colour accuracy is either
    understated or ignored completely - but the over-saturated "kodachrome"
    look is valued greatly.
    I've seen a range of different model pixma home printers from the 4000
    through to the 9900 lined up side by side, printing the same image on
    the same paper from the same computer and software. The colour balance
    varied widely (and I mean widely) from printer to printer. Nobody
    seemed to care - most consumers at that level don't even notice. Given
    Canon's position in the amateur and professional camera market, I bet
    that they know what the expectations will be, and I bet that they don't
    stuff it up from a marketing POV. Canon in particular are an extremely
    effective marketing company.

    Many pros already use HP designjet printers for large format printing,
    so they already have a leg in the door.
     
    frederick, Feb 24, 2006
    #4
  5. frederick

    Jon O'Brien Guest

    In article <p1tLf.39465$>, (bmoag) wrote:

    > Also Canon manufactures an exceedingly limited, basically 2, paper
    > types...


    According to the press release, there are '...more than 30 types of Canon-branded media available...' and '...seven new fine art papers...'

    Even if they don't provide profiles for the new printer for all their papers, professional users wouldn't be too bothered. When you pay that much for a printer, the cost of a custom profile is negligible.

    Jon.
     
    Jon O'Brien, Feb 24, 2006
    #5
  6. frederick

    frederick Guest

    rafe b wrote:
    > On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:09:41 GMT, "bmoag" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The problem with Canon is that thier color management protocols in recent
    >>driver generations are not as reliable as Epson's. Also Canon manufactures
    >>an exceedingly limited, basically 2, paper types with which they include
    >>profiles with their printer drivers. This is hardly competition at the high
    >>end for Epson, even if Canon puts 256 different color inks in their
    >>printers.

    >
    >
    >
    > Canon would certainly love to have a piece of
    > Epson's market, but so far they've made a few
    > stupid moves.
    >
    > The print driver on my Canon S9000 was a joke.
    > In a word: condescending, to the max. They
    > seem bent on hiding any detail that might
    > confuse or upset the clueless newbie user.
    >
    > There was some issue with Canon's error-diffusion
    > or dithering algorithm that creates a very fine
    > micro-banding -- not just on my printer but on
    > almost every other comparable machine that I was
    > able to observe.
    >
    > By contrast, the driver on my Epson R1800 is
    > a gem; support for ICC-based color management
    > is simple, straightforward, and thoroughly
    > documented in the user manual. Plus, Epson
    > provides a large collection of great ICC
    > profiles, at no charge, on their website.
    >
    >
    > rafe b
    > www.terrapinphoto.com



    IMO, more interesting than the Canon is the new HP printer, despite
    having less ink tanks than the Pro9500.
    The HP has separate ink tanks and printer heads. If the HP is like the
    smaller versions of their new 8200 series dye printers - recycling ink
    used in cleaning, and the ink is priced reasonably, then it might be
    very economical to run - the ink cartridges are 28ml - twice the size of
    normal Canon/Epson cartridges in this market, and it might not waste any
    at all in cleaning!

    The HP printer also has "closed loop calibration" built in. It sounds
    like it really might be the goods.
     
    frederick, Feb 24, 2006
    #6
  7. frederick

    rafe b Guest

    On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:00:31 +1300, frederick <> wrote:


    >IMO, more interesting than the Canon is the new HP printer, despite
    >having less ink tanks than the Pro9500.
    >The HP has separate ink tanks and printer heads. If the HP is like the
    >smaller versions of their new 8200 series dye printers - recycling ink
    >used in cleaning, and the ink is priced reasonably, then it might be
    >very economical to run - the ink cartridges are 28ml - twice the size of
    >normal Canon/Epson cartridges in this market, and it might not waste any
    >at all in cleaning!
    >
    >The HP printer also has "closed loop calibration" built in. It sounds
    >like it really might be the goods.



    I owned a DesignJet 30 for about a year and
    can comment from experience on some of these
    matters.

    The DJ30 was in fact incredibly frugal with
    ink. I can say it was/is the most ink-
    efficient inkjet printer I've ever used.

    I very much appreciated the design of the
    ink-delivery system (large, stationary carts)
    and user-replaceable heads. Never once
    had even a hint of a clog.

    The paper-feed system and paper path were
    terrible, though. Paper sits in the input
    tray with the printing side down. Paper
    is bent 180 degrees as it goes through the
    printer. If you weren't extremely careful,
    it was likely to jam just as the print was
    being ejected. What a disaster.

    The closed-loop color calibration never
    worked, on my DJ30, on *any* glossy paper,
    including HP's. This was apparently a
    known issue, but never resolved by HP.

    How ironic, considering that the "niche"
    of the DJ series was print longevity with
    dye inks on glossy and satin papers.

    Interesting to me that no single printer
    company gets it "all right." Each one has
    certain strengths and weaknesses.



    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Feb 24, 2006
    #7
  8. frederick

    SleeperMan Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > A3+ sizes from Canon and HP...
    > 10 colour from Canon, 8 colour from HP.
    > And a replacement from Canon for i9900/9500, now with Chromalife 100
    > dye (looks like a big iP8500)
    > Great stuff - some competition at last for Epson at the high end of
    > consumer / small pro photo printers.


    i really can't understand why they don't put 32 million carts in it...
    I mean, really. If common sense tells you that you can get ALL colors with
    basic three ones.

    --
    Visit my web page at http://www.protoncek.com
     
    SleeperMan, Feb 26, 2006
    #8
  9. frederick

    rafe b Guest

    On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:55:02 +0100, "SleeperMan"
    <> wrote:


    >i really can't understand why they don't put 32 million carts in it...
    >I mean, really. If common sense tells you that you can get ALL colors with
    >basic three ones.



    More colors are generally better, but you know,
    there are practical limits.

    With the standard six-color CMYcmK ink set, my
    Canon S9000 or HP DesignJet 30 couldn't reach
    more than about 10-12% of the overall volume of
    sRGB space.

    Pure, deep blues and purples, for example, are
    still outside the range.

    And monochrome (neutral gray) printing isn't
    dead yet. Seems to be making a comeback, in
    fact.


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Feb 26, 2006
    #9
  10. frederick

    SleeperMan Guest

    rafe b wrote:
    > On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:55:02 +0100, "SleeperMan"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> i really can't understand why they don't put 32 million carts in
    >> it...
    >> I mean, really. If common sense tells you that you can get ALL
    >> colors with basic three ones.

    >
    >
    > More colors are generally better, but you know,
    > there are practical limits.
    >
    > With the standard six-color CMYcmK ink set, my
    > Canon S9000 or HP DesignJet 30 couldn't reach
    > more than about 10-12% of the overall volume of
    > sRGB space.
    >
    > Pure, deep blues and purples, for example, are
    > still outside the range.
    >
    > And monochrome (neutral gray) printing isn't
    > dead yet. Seems to be making a comeback, in
    > fact.
    >
    >
    > rafe b
    > www.terrapinphoto.com


    hm...if that's true, they both make a hell of a job with other 88-90 %---
    --
    Visit my web page at http://www.protoncek.com
     
    SleeperMan, Feb 26, 2006
    #10
  11. frederick

    measekite Guest

    SleeperMan wrote:

    >frederick wrote:
    >
    >
    >>A3+ sizes from Canon and HP...
    >>10 colour from Canon, 8 colour from HP.
    >>And a replacement from Canon for i9900/9500, now with Chromalife 100
    >>dye (looks like a big iP8500)
    >>Great stuff - some competition at last for Epson at the high end of
    >>consumer / small pro photo printers.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >i really can't understand why they don't put 32 million carts in it...
    >I mean, really. If common sense tells you that you can get ALL colors with
    >basic three ones.
    >
    >
    >

    THEN A SHMUCK LIKE YOU CAN SPEND ALL YEAR REFILLING THEM
     
    measekite, Feb 26, 2006
    #11
  12. frederick

    rafe b Guest

    On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:08:45 +0100, "SleeperMan"
    <> wrote:

    >rafe b wrote:


    >> With the standard six-color CMYcmK ink set, my
    >> Canon S9000 or HP DesignJet 30 couldn't reach
    >> more than about 10-12% of the overall volume of
    >> sRGB space.



    >hm...if that's true, they both make a hell of a job with other 88-90 %---



    Indeed they do. Best analogy I can think
    of is an ice cube in dixie cup.

    The water in the cup is sRGB or AdobeRGB space.
    The ice cube is your printer's color space.

    90% of the ice cube is underwater. That's the
    part of the printer's space that's contained
    within sRGB.

    10% of the ice cube is above water. That's
    the small region where your printer's color
    space may exceed sRGB.

    In any case, we're talking about one odd-
    shaped volume that is mostly (but not
    completely) contained within a much
    larger odd-shaped volume.

    If you have and use ICC profiles for your
    printer, you can see all this graphically
    at www.iccview.de. It's really quite
    interesting and entertaining.



    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Feb 26, 2006
    #12
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