media streaming from router's USB network drive to TV doesn't work

W

WindowsAssassin

Hello,

Media streaming of video files on my pc via the wireless router to my
TV works well using Windows Media Player with media streaming enabled.

However, when I copy these exact same video files to an external hard
drive that is attached to the router via USB, I can see the video
files on my TV but the names are greyed out and I cannot select them
to play on the TV, as if the file format is not supported.

Why is this? The purpose of copying the video files to the external
drive is that I want to be able to stream and watch video's on my TV
without the need to have my pc turned on.

I have:
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Windows Media Player 12
Maxtor external hard drive connected to router via USB
Linksys WRT610N simultaneous dual band router
Home cinema that supports DLNA

Thanks for the help
 
P

Paul

WindowsAssassin said:
Hello,

Media streaming of video files on my pc via the wireless router to my
TV works well using Windows Media Player with media streaming enabled.

However, when I copy these exact same video files to an external hard
drive that is attached to the router via USB, I can see the video
files on my TV but the names are greyed out and I cannot select them
to play on the TV, as if the file format is not supported.

Why is this? The purpose of copying the video files to the external
drive is that I want to be able to stream and watch video's on my TV
without the need to have my pc turned on.

I have:
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Windows Media Player 12
Maxtor external hard drive connected to router via USB
Linksys WRT610N simultaneous dual band router
Home cinema that supports DLNA

Thanks for the help

The suggestion in the bottom post in this thread, is to check whether
the PC can see the Linksys and access streamed content from the
WRT610N, using Windows Media Player. That would at least prove whether
the WRT610N recognizes the media folder you declared in the setup screen,
and has completed its scan and built a list of media to share.

http://homecommunity.cisco.com/t5/Wireless-Routers/wrt610N-and-streaming-media-to-a-360/td-p/219986

There is a V1 and a V2 version of the WRT610N, which further complicates
any problems they might have. Maybe the V2 has different problems than
the V1.

I suppose the TV might actually have started to stream the content,
checked the format of the video coming across, and decided it wasn't
supported, and that's why it is grayed out. Try testing with a "trivial"
movie format, if you can. Decompress one of your H.264 files and
convert to avi or something, and see if the TV likes that over Wifi.

Paul
 
F

Flasherly

Hello,

Media streaming of video files on my pc via the wireless router to my
TV works well using Windows Media Player with media streaming enabled.

However, when I copy these exact same video files to an external hard
drive that is attached to the router via USB, I can see the video
files on my TV but the names are greyed out and I cannot select them
to play on the TV, as if the file format is not supported.

Why is this? The purpose of copying the video files to the external
drive is that I want to be able to stream and watch video's on my TV
without the need to have my pc turned on.

I'm not sure how the flat panel relates to a digital video storage
medium. The flat panel contains a tuner for two or three expected
video broadcasting standard, besides a couple extra connects as means
to serve a computer display. There is no such thing as plugging in a
hard disk directly into a monitor. Such a "box," however containing
or supportive of a digital video storage (USB, HD, memory, or optical
disc media), to be so must meet a very generalized and open standard
provided by panel display manufacturers. Further, to as well define
your router within such specifications, as a video broadcasting
device, exceeds how routers are defined. There are tons of such,
boxes dedicated to relaying video output from common stream encodes.
A router, though, to such an end tends to be dedicated to proprietary
services propagating in-house encryption to specialized services and
contracts. Also bear in mind a few years ago when European
commonwealth interests intersected with Microsoft in a law suit.
Microsoft lost within terms characterized industrially as a setback.
The crux of the case, as I understand, concerned Windows Media
Player. Have you considered watching with another player, besides
Microsoft's, one as well adaptable to your "router," perhaps, more or
less for the implicit convenience?
 
G

GMAN

I'm not sure how the flat panel relates to a digital video storage
medium. The flat panel contains a tuner for two or three expected
video broadcasting standard, besides a couple extra connects as means
to serve a computer display. There is no such thing as plugging in a
hard disk directly into a monitor. Such a "box," however containing
or supportive of a digital video storage (USB, HD, memory, or optical
disc media), to be so must meet a very generalized and open standard
provided by panel display manufacturers. Further, to as well define
your router within such specifications, as a video broadcasting
device, exceeds how routers are defined. There are tons of such,
boxes dedicated to relaying video output from common stream encodes.
A router, though, to such an end tends to be dedicated to proprietary
services propagating in-house encryption to specialized services and
contracts. Also bear in mind a few years ago when European
commonwealth interests intersected with Microsoft in a law suit.
Microsoft lost within terms characterized industrially as a setback.
The crux of the case, as I understand, concerned Windows Media
Player. Have you considered watching with another player, besides
Microsoft's, one as well adaptable to your "router," perhaps, more or
less for the implicit convenience?

Jesus Christ professor, instead of making zero sense, why dont you direct the
man to http://www.dlna.org/

That generalized and open standard you speak of is called DNLA!!! and its not
provided by the panel makers, its standards agreed upon by the indutry.

http://www.dlna.
org/dlna-for-industry/about-dlna-corporate-history/member-companies


Many TV;s nowadays have DLNA capabilities built into them. And the router he
has is supposed to stream video and audio from his wireless router directly to
his TV from a USB attached drive plugged directly into his router.

Did you do too much LSD back in the day???? Becuase what you type makes no
sense to anybody here.
 
T

Ting Hsu

Linksys WRT610N simultaneous dual band router
Home cinema that supports DLNA

According to the user guide, this router does not actually stream
anything; it can store files, not stream them. You need an external
media player to stream. Nearly all routers that claim to be "media
streaming routers" have this same problem - they only store files, not
stream them.
http://homedownloads.cisco.com/downloads/userguide/WRT610N_V20_UG_NC-WEB.pdf

In addition, it is obvious that your TV does not have a media player
built into it. I cannot tell for sure, since you neglected to mention
the make/model of your TV, but that's my guess.

Thus you need a media player somewhere on your network, which means
your choices are...

1. Buy a media playing device, like a Boxee Box, or
2. Build a media playing device, like an HTPC (home theater PC), or
3. Hack an XBox360 or Apple TV with XBMC (a media playing app), or
4. Buy an internet ready TV that can play common video formats (I
would bring a video on a usb drive to test it in the store). As you
now know, not all internet ready TVs support playback of video files.
 
D

delta007bhd

According to the user guide, this router does not actually stream
anything; it can store files, not stream them. You need an external
media player to stream. Nearly all routers that claim to be "media
streaming routers" have this same problem - they only store files, not
stream them.
http://homedownloads.cisco.com/downloads/userguide/WRT610N_V20_UG_NC-WEB.pdf

In addition, it is obvious that your TV does not have a media player
built into it. I cannot tell for sure, since you neglected to mention
the make/model of your TV, but that's my guess.

Thus you need a media player somewhere on your network, which means
your choices are...

1. Buy a media playing device, like a Boxee Box, or
2. Build a media playing device, like an HTPC (home theater PC), or
3. Hack an XBox360 or Apple TV with XBMC (a media playing app), or
4. Buy an internet ready TV that can play common video formats (I
would bring a video on a usb drive to test it in the store). As you
now know, not all internet ready TVs support playback of video files.

In Windows Media Player I can see at the left under the topic "Other libraries" "PVConnect (WRT610N)". This refers to my external hard drive that's connected to the WRT610N router. This is streamed wirelessly to my Blu-ray home cinema (model Panasonic SC-BT230) that has a USB WiFi dongle plugged in.In it's menu I then select the DLNA Network where I get a list of devices that contains 2 entries. One for my pc that can stream music, videos and photos via Windows Media Player's Library. And another device that's listed as WRT610N which is my external hard drive connected to the router.

@Ting Hsu: You say my router doesn't stream anything. But page 3 from the manual from your link says "The built-in media server streams music, video and photos from the attached storage device to any UPnP-compatible media adapter"

So I copied different video file types onto the external hard drive now to test. An MP4, 2 AVI's, and an MPG video file. All are greyed out except forthe MPG which streams and plays fine on my tv. Note that the other video files stream fine as well but from my pc to the tv and not from the usb drive.
 
F

Flasherly

Jesus Christ professor, instead of making zero sense, why dont you direct the
man to http://www.dlna.org/

That generalized and open standard you speak of is called DNLA!!! and its not
provided by the panel makers, its standards agreed upon by the indutry.

http://www.dlna.
org/dlna-for-industry/about-dlna-corporate-history/member-companies

Many TV;s nowadays have DLNA capabilities built into them. And the router he
has is supposed to stream video and audio from his wireless router directly to
his TV from a USB attached drive plugged directly into his router.

Did you do too much LSD back in the day???? Becuase what you type makes no
sense to anybody here.
.

Amazing, I suppose, perhaps you then should realize there exists a
corporate membership. I had, although only couched in allusions,
referred to that membership in a sense of 'in-house and proprietary'
cases. But, I think I do see where ignoring a triviality associated
with facts, those I didn't care more closely to inspect or specify,
apparently have transgressed past all a meaning I did convey for a sum
impact of affected ingratiation you're sharing with me. Very well.
Might we then attempt to follow this line of reasoning, were I to
further, openly to submit, a) nothing other than Windows Media Player
will play with such devices, and, b) how should you to react to a
prior suspicion, in point of fact, I may already have sensed to know
prior this, viz in that very supposition I stated prior, that another
player, apart from Microsoft's, first be [dis]qualified? I sincerely
hope, beyond Jesus Christ, LSD, and the greater academia, by now I
will have provided some precious means to that modicum you wish to
share with all. . . . By Zeus my dear man, go for it!
 
P

Peter

Sorry, I'm a bit behind on the discussion. Does the TV support playing
of media files directly without any other external media player being
required to play those files? Have you confirmed this works? Does the TV
have USB to allow a direct connection to test this out?
 
F

Flasherly

Sorry, I'm a bit behind on the discussion. Does the TV support playing
of media files directly without any other external media player being
required to play those files? Have you confirmed this works? Does the TV
have USB to allow a direct connection to test this out?

Probably not. There's only a few such concoctions floating around
with chipped decoder circuitry for maybe premier service provider
contracts. Stuff like Sony Entertainment with the corporate umph
behind it to make it fly. Not the sorts of things apt to be found in
Wallymart. Last I looked their likes require service distribution
centers to agree to pricing contracts before they can carry the
brands. Hence the convenience takes they play about adding it "your
cart" before knowing how much they're into "your wallet" -- of course
requiring that cart first be registered. Let the advertising games
begin anew. Like my new car with a base model requirement in
collusion with Sirius XM satellite streaming, or the $1000 pressure
system monitor off batteries installed into tire valve stems.
Lobbyists hard at work safely insuring four 10-cent battery
replacements are factory certified at an additional $500. Curious if
Cisco is now chipping routers with an interplay off Microsoft's newest
media offerings.
 
G

GMAN

According to the user guide, this router does not actually stream
anything; it can store files, not stream them. You need an external
media player to stream. Nearly all routers that claim to be "media
streaming routers" have this same problem - they only store files, not
stream them.
http://homedownloads.cisco.com/downloads/userguide/WRT610N_V20_UG_NC-WEB.pd=
f

In addition, it is obvious that your TV does not have a media player
built into it. I cannot tell for sure, since you neglected to mention
the make/model of your TV, but that's my guess.

Thus you need a media player somewhere on your network, which means
your choices are...

1. Buy a media playing device, like a Boxee Box, or
2. Build a media playing device, like an HTPC (home theater PC), or
3. Hack an XBox360 or Apple TV with XBMC (a media playing app), or
4. Buy an internet ready TV that can play common video formats (I
would bring a video on a usb drive to test it in the store). As you
now know, not all internet ready TVs support playback of video files.


The WRT610N has a built in uPnP/DNLA media server, but you have to turn the
feature on in the router



http://www6.nohold.net/Cisco2/ukp.
aspx?vw=1&docid=d6dc548e38a24088b760cfa3fb190797_17403.xml&pid=96&slnid=3


The OP needs to read chapter 3 of the owners manual and it tells you how to
setup the server in the router

http://homedownloads.cisco.com/downloads/userguide/WRT610N_V20_UG_NC-WEB.pdf
 
G

GMAN

Sorry, I'm a bit behind on the discussion. Does the TV support playing
of media files directly without any other external media player being
required to play those files? Have you confirmed this works? Does the TV
have USB to allow a direct connection to test this out?
[/QUOTE]

google "DLNA"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance

Pretty much the standard all media players follow today
 
G

GMAN

Probably not. There's only a few such concoctions floating around
with chipped decoder circuitry for maybe premier service provider
contracts. Stuff like Sony Entertainment with the corporate umph
behind it to make it fly. Not the sorts of things apt to be found in
Wallymart. Last I looked their likes require service distribution
centers to agree to pricing contracts before they can carry the
brands. Hence the convenience takes they play about adding it "your
cart" before knowing how much they're into "your wallet" -- of course
requiring that cart first be registered. Let the advertising games
begin anew. Like my new car with a base model requirement in
collusion with Sirius XM satellite streaming, or the $1000 pressure
system monitor off batteries installed into tire valve stems.
Lobbyists hard at work safely insuring four 10-cent battery
replacements are factory certified at an additional $500. Curious if
Cisco is now chipping routers with an interplay off Microsoft's newest
media offerings.


OMG, most decent Tv's,blu ray players, gaming devices have DNLA capabilities
now.
 
T

Ting Hsu

Wow, lots and lots of misinformation on this topic, enough that it
seems that I'm the only one who has ever streamed video to my TV
without a PC involved.

The DLNA specifies 3 things: a server, a renderer, and a controller.

You need all three parts to actually view a video file on your TV.

But here's the rub: you only need 1 part to be compliant with DLNA.

In the original poster's set up, the one that worked, here's what the
3 parts were.

Server = Router with USB hard drive
Renderer = Windows Media Player on his PC
Controller = TV

The original poster assumed that if he got rid of the "renderer", that
everything would just magically work, because everything was DLNA
compliant. But the router is only compatible with the "server" part of
the DLNA and the TV is only compatible with the "controller" part of
the DLNA. He still needs the "renderer" part in order for everything
to work (and his router ain't it; in fact, I don't know of a single
router that can do the "renderer" portion of the DLNA).

The most common way to get a standalone "renderer" is to build, buy,
or hack a device to provide it. On the buy side, just look up Boxee
Box or WD TV Live as your starting points.
 
D

delta007bhd

The WRT610N has a built in uPnP/DNLA media server, but you have to turn the
feature on in the router



http://www6.nohold.net/Cisco2/ukp.
aspx?vw=1&docid=d6dc548e38a24088b760cfa3fb190797_17403.xml&pid=96&slnid=3


The OP needs to read chapter 3 of the owners manual and it tells you how to
setup the server in the router

http://homedownloads.cisco.com/downloads/userguide/WRT610N_V20_UG_NC-WEB.pdf

The UPnP Media Server is enabled in the web based configuration page of my router. I also formatted the hard drive from there (the router needs it to be FAT32) and then created a folder and scanned the folder from the router webpage.
 
F

Flasherly

OMG, most decent Tv's,blu ray players, gaming devices have DNLA capabilities
now.

Yea -- I hear you, although there's something indecent about DNLA that
stinks to me. It's all digital streams variously for processing, so
adding another connection and support chip for the TeeVee, another
BRay or game box stacked beside or on top a computer -- they're
negating the computer for, lo & behold, sector specific niches of
dedicated in-house subscription equipment. . . .Bah, and bugger 'em
bloody by the scores. Duplicating with lesser equipment what a
decent computer should be able to better achieve. Never spent anything
more than needed just for hardware, know most *all* the freeware
counterparts among useful software, quit games long time ago, no
teevee other than a seldom used aerial, though I do still shop at
Walmart, which is still, of sorts, an indecent place. I wasn't always
this way, of course; just had to work hard at it.

-
They don't get that way for nothing. -Old Greek proverb.
 
F

Flasherly

So I copied different video file types onto the external hard drive now to test. An MP4, 2 AVI's, and an MPG video file. All are greyed out except for the MPG which streams and plays fine on my tv. Note that the other videofiles stream fine as well but from my pc to the tv and not from the usb drive.

Yep. That figures: surprise, surprise <NOT> MPEG2 is the IS <industry
standard> for broadcasting satellite streams, least last I looked.
 
P

Paul

The UPnP Media Server is enabled in the web based configuration page of my router. I also formatted the hard drive from there (the router needs it to be FAT32) and then created a folder and scanned the folder from the router webpage.

So if I'm following all this now, you've succeeded in getting one format,
to play from WRT610N to TV, the MPG video file.

Now, have you cracked open the TV spec, to see what it mentions in the
way of movie file formats ?

I checked a thread just now, and the TV in their example, had a
chart of formats. The claim in the thread, is DLNA narrows
down the scope of uPnP, and so not a lot of formats are
supported. So this is the kind of chart you're looking for in
the TV manual.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/samsung_hd_tech/Page82.jpg

The thread I saw is here. And the person who provided that page from
a manual, claims you have to match the details pretty exactly, for
it to work.

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-322838/dlna-formats-supported/

Paul
 
R

Rodney Pont

The UPnP Media Server is enabled in the web based configuration page of my router. I also formatted the hard drive from there (the router needs it to be FAT32) and then created a folder and scanned the folder from the router webpage.

It sounds like you need to convert the files to a format that your TV
understands using something like avs4you <http://www.avs4you.com>.
 
D

delta007bhd

So if I'm following all this now, you've succeeded in getting one format,
to play from WRT610N to TV, the MPG video file.

Now, have you cracked open the TV spec, to see what it mentions in the
way of movie file formats ?

I checked a thread just now, and the TV in their example, had a
chart of formats. The claim in the thread, is DLNA narrows
down the scope of uPnP, and so not a lot of formats are
supported. So this is the kind of chart you're looking for in
the TV manual.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/samsung_hd_tech/Page82.jpg

The thread I saw is here. And the person who provided that page from
a manual, claims you have to match the details pretty exactly, for
it to work.

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-322838/dlna-formats-supported/

Paul



So if I'm following all this now, you've succeeded in getting one format,
to play from WRT610N to TV, the MPG video file.

Now, have you cracked open the TV spec, to see what it mentions in the
way of movie file formats ?

I checked a thread just now, and the TV in their example, had a
chart of formats. The claim in the thread, is DLNA narrows
down the scope of uPnP, and so not a lot of formats are
supported. So this is the kind of chart you're looking for in
the TV manual.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/samsung_hd_tech/Page82.jpg

The thread I saw is here. And the person who provided that page from
a manual, claims you have to match the details pretty exactly, for
it to work.

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-322838/dlna-formats-supported/

Paul



So if I'm following all this now, you've succeeded in getting one format,
to play from WRT610N to TV, the MPG video file.

Now, have you cracked open the TV spec, to see what it mentions in the
way of movie file formats ?

I checked a thread just now, and the TV in their example, had a
chart of formats. The claim in the thread, is DLNA narrows
down the scope of uPnP, and so not a lot of formats are
supported. So this is the kind of chart you're looking for in
the TV manual.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/samsung_hd_tech/Page82.jpg

The thread I saw is here. And the person who provided that page from
a manual, claims you have to match the details pretty exactly, for
it to work.

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-322838/dlna-formats-supported/

Paul



So if I'm following all this now, you've succeeded in getting one format,
to play from WRT610N to TV, the MPG video file.

Now, have you cracked open the TV spec, to see what it mentions in the
way of movie file formats ?

I checked a thread just now, and the TV in their example, had a
chart of formats. The claim in the thread, is DLNA narrows
down the scope of uPnP, and so not a lot of formats are
supported. So this is the kind of chart you're looking for in
the TV manual.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/samsung_hd_tech/Page82.jpg

The thread I saw is here. And the person who provided that page from
a manual, claims you have to match the details pretty exactly, for
it to work.

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-322838/dlna-formats-supported/

Paul

Right, so to summarise: streaming avi from running pc with windows media player streaming turned on to the tv works fine. Then, when I copy those sameavi files onto a portable hard disk that is attached to my router's usb port, my tv cannot play the avi's anymore (greyed out). The hard disk is formatted using the router's webpage and a shared folder has been enabled as well as media server. My tv can see the shared media but cannot play it. EXCEPT if I copy an mpg onto the disk, this plays fine. I'm totally confused and a total noob about this. If they tell me the router and tv and so on support UPnP and media sharing and usb hard drives and sh*t, I get pissed when it doesn't play the media.

I might have overlooked stuff since I'm just not into this stuff but I can't find any info such as "beware, beware, you cannot play avi files with this device", neither in the router's manual and neither in the tv manual.

The only chart you talked about I found is page 8 in the blu-ray manual:
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SCBT730.PDF
I don't know why the f**k this is but in this english manual there is no DivX while in my paper manual there is DivX for DVD and BD. Hell, I don't even know where to look anymore, do you look in the tv manual, the blu-ray player manual, the router manual, does it have something to do with codecs on my pc or windows media player, my external disk,...

All this technology and gimmicks will ultimately lead to the decay and fallof our western civilisation, just like the roman empire went down.
 
P

Paul

Right, so to summarise: streaming avi from running pc with windows media player
streaming turned on to the tv works fine. Then, when I copy those same avi files
onto a portable hard disk that is attached to my router's usb port, my tv cannot
play the avi's anymore (greyed out). The hard disk is formatted using the router's
webpage and a shared folder has been enabled as well as media server. My tv can
see the shared media but cannot play it. EXCEPT if I copy an mpg onto the disk,
this plays fine. I'm totally confused and a total noob about this. If they tell
me the router and tv and so on support UPnP and media sharing and usb hard drives
and sh*t, I get pissed when it doesn't play the media.

I might have overlooked stuff since I'm just not into this stuff but I can't find
any info such as "beware, beware, you cannot play avi files with this device",
neither in the router's manual and neither in the tv manual.

The only chart you talked about I found is page 8 in the blu-ray manual:
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SCBT730.PDF
I don't know why the f**k this is but in this english manual there is no DivX
while in my paper manual there is DivX for DVD and BD. Hell, I don't even know
where to look anymore, do you look in the tv manual, the blu-ray player manual,
the router manual, does it have something to do with codecs on my pc or windows
media player, my external disk,...

All this technology and gimmicks will ultimately lead to the decay and fall of
our western civilisation, just like the roman empire went down.

I always think in terms of the client/server model. One device is a server, the
other is a client. Both have limited intelligence, and sometimes, not even the
manual does justice to the subject. For example, your router won't eat an NTFS
disk drive, and goes with FAT32. And has the usual size limit as well. I don't
think it can accept a 2TB drive. The limit is likely a bit less than that.
I've seen that kind of limit on some NAS boxes, but I'm hard pressed to
explain the number. When a NAS box says "200GB limit", I just throw my hands
in the air, because there is *no* capacity limit in the designs, at the
200GB point. Or at 500GB, or 750GB for that matter. The only capacity
limits I'm aware of, are at 137GB (48bitLBA) and 2.2TB (32 bit sector number).

In this case, both the router and the TV have manuals. The router manual,
is going to acknowledge what formats the router will scan and present
in a menu to other devices. The router is a server, but it may not "stream"
any old thing it finds. If it found a copy of the US Constitution on the
hard drive, it's going to take a pass on that and not bother. Eventually,
after it "scans" the folder, it's ready to pass a "menu" to the other machine.

The client has two interests. It wants to see the "menu", kinda like the
equivalent of a "dir" or "list directory" command. But it's also going
to want to know what kind of movies they are. I presume the "scanning"
the router does, is to classify the movies. The TV will only have certain
licensed codecs in its bag of tools, and the formats supported are going
to be Hollywood formats. So if some Linux guy comes up with something
called "ogg", even though "ogg" is free, the TV is going to laugh at
that format. Maybe the TV company paid $1 for an mp4 license and the
ability to use a codec for it. They're going to want to handle whatever
movie format comes on a DVD, that kind of thing. They're not trying to
build an "all purpose jukebox" in the TV. And apparently, DLNA attempts
to do that, pointing to a limited set of formats as targets for the
client and server. The router isn't DLNA, so may be a bit more open
ended on formats, but you say your TV is DLNA.

If your computer and Windows Media Player, are able to play all the
content, then the router ("server") is able to successfully serve the
movies. If the TV won't touch the meal its served, then we need to
crack the TV manual, as I stated before.

Please provide either the TV make and model, or the URL of the TV
manual itself. There's got to be a table in there, similar to the
example I dug up. If not, the table of formats is floating around
on the Internet, and when you post the make and model, we can look
it up.

Paul
 

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