Internal SATA & External IDE Connected as SATA to P4PE

[ray_woodcock]

I have several internal IDE drives connected to an ASUS P4PE
motherboard. I also have an internal SATA drive connected to the first
of the two SATA connectors on that mobo. This arrangement continues to
work just fine.

As I dimly recall, it was something of a hassle to get the internal
SATA drive working properly. I ultimately set it up as a FastTrack
array of one drive. That seems to have taken care of whatever problems
I was having.

Now I have a new addition to the system. I have purchased an external
IDE drive enclosure. The enclosure I have purchased is a member of the
Metal Gear Box series by PPA International. See
http://www.ppa-usa.com/product_pages/enclosures/780SAU2.htm

This enclosure has the interesting feature of having both USB 2.0 and
SATA connectors. For a small additional cost, I thought it would be
good to have the option of SATA's much higher data transfer rates.

I thought the upper limit on SATA II was 300 MB, but I am running into
webpages that seem to say it is 150 MB. See
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&q="sata i" OR "sata ii" 150 OR 150mb

I think the P4PE, which I installed in early 2003, must have predated
SATA II. So I assume its SATA connectors are SATA I. So when the
Metal Gear Box advertises itself as having a 150 MB upper limit, I
guess that is something that might matter to me sometime in the future.
But for now, I assume I am restricted to SATA I speeds when connecting
a SATA drive to the P4PE.

Yet it is my impression that even SATA I speeds are substantially
faster than USB 2.0. I have already used the USB 2.0 connector to hook
up the Metal Gear Box enclosure, and have verified that the P4PE system
is able to see the drive that I have put into that enclosure. But now
I would like to try to get the SATA I connection to work.

Note, again, that the drive I have placed into the enclosure is an IDE
drive. The data and power connections inside the enclosure are IDE
connections, not SATA. As I understand it, the sole purpose of the
external SATA connection is to speed up the transfer of data between
the motherboard and the external IDE drive.

I say it is an external SATA connection, but that is not quite right.
To my surprise, the rear end of the Metal Gear Box enclosure sports an
internal SATA connector, not an eSATA connector. I will be pleased if
I don't have to buy a shielded external cable, but I am also a little
concerned about the noise effects that may impact data transfers
through an exposed internal cable. But I can get by with exposing only
about one foot of internal cable, between the computer case and the
external drive, so this may not be a problem.

What is a problem, at this point, is that the system does not recognize
the external drive when I use the SATA connector. As I say, the USB
connection works OK, but I want that SATA speed if I can get it. The
question is, can I?

I have taken the time to write up this careful explanation of the
situation because it seems that I have one or two complications. One
complication is this atypical situation of using a SATA cable to
transfer IDE data. I hope I don't have to set jumpers in any certain
way. If I'm going to have to crack open the case and play with jumpers
each time, I might as well have just used the drive internally and
skipped the purchase of an external enclosure.

Another complication is the whole matter of configuring the internal
SATA drive as an array of one. On boot, the FastTrack controller does
see both drives; it's Windows Explorer that doesn't. The controller
reports that the second drive is in a "Free" status -- which, I can
assure you, is not an apt description of the amount I have spent on
this little enterprise. How to convert that free drive into a more
agreeable condition of enslavement, I don't know.

I am concerned about the Metal Gear Box's evidently mixed reviews. For
example, I hadn't run across the page at
http://www.techimo.com/articles/i82.html while doing my initial
exploration. What I saw was the Newegg reviews at
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...8&ATT=External+Enclosure&CMP=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r.
I do rely on Newegg. I don't think they tend to sell junk. But I am
missing something here.

The unit did not come with any printed documentation. There is a CD,
but it contains drivers and information that seems to be oriented
toward Windows 98 users, whereas I am running XP.

So if anyone can tell me how to hook this sucker up, I would be most
grateful. Best regards ...

 

[Paul]

I have several internal IDE drives connected to an ASUS P4PE
motherboard. I also have an internal SATA drive connected to the first
of the two SATA connectors on that mobo. This arrangement continues to
work just fine.

As I dimly recall, it was something of a hassle to get the internal
SATA drive working properly. I ultimately set it up as a FastTrack
array of one drive. That seems to have taken care of whatever problems
I was having.

Now I have a new addition to the system. I have purchased an external
IDE drive enclosure. The enclosure I have purchased is a member of the
Metal Gear Box series by PPA International. See
http://www.ppa-usa.com/product_pages/enclosures/780SAU2.htm

This enclosure has the interesting feature of having both USB 2.0 and
SATA connectors. For a small additional cost, I thought it would be
good to have the option of SATA's much higher data transfer rates.

I thought the upper limit on SATA II was 300 MB, but I am running into
webpages that seem to say it is 150 MB. See
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&q="sata i" OR "sata ii" 150 OR 150mb

I think the P4PE, which I installed in early 2003, must have predated
SATA II. So I assume its SATA connectors are SATA I. So when the
Metal Gear Box advertises itself as having a 150 MB upper limit, I
guess that is something that might matter to me sometime in the future.
But for now, I assume I am restricted to SATA I speeds when connecting
a SATA drive to the P4PE.

Yet it is my impression that even SATA I speeds are substantially
faster than USB 2.0. I have already used the USB 2.0 connector to hook
up the Metal Gear Box enclosure, and have verified that the P4PE system
is able to see the drive that I have put into that enclosure. But now
I would like to try to get the SATA I connection to work.

Note, again, that the drive I have placed into the enclosure is an IDE
drive. The data and power connections inside the enclosure are IDE
connections, not SATA. As I understand it, the sole purpose of the
external SATA connection is to speed up the transfer of data between
the motherboard and the external IDE drive.

I say it is an external SATA connection, but that is not quite right.
To my surprise, the rear end of the Metal Gear Box enclosure sports an
internal SATA connector, not an eSATA connector. I will be pleased if
I don't have to buy a shielded external cable, but I am also a little
concerned about the noise effects that may impact data transfers
through an exposed internal cable. But I can get by with exposing only
about one foot of internal cable, between the computer case and the
external drive, so this may not be a problem.

What is a problem, at this point, is that the system does not recognize
the external drive when I use the SATA connector. As I say, the USB
connection works OK, but I want that SATA speed if I can get it. The
question is, can I?

I have taken the time to write up this careful explanation of the
situation because it seems that I have one or two complications. One
complication is this atypical situation of using a SATA cable to
transfer IDE data. I hope I don't have to set jumpers in any certain
way. If I'm going to have to crack open the case and play with jumpers
each time, I might as well have just used the drive internally and
skipped the purchase of an external enclosure.

Another complication is the whole matter of configuring the internal
SATA drive as an array of one. On boot, the FastTrack controller does
see both drives; it's Windows Explorer that doesn't. The controller
reports that the second drive is in a "Free" status -- which, I can
assure you, is not an apt description of the amount I have spent on
this little enterprise. How to convert that free drive into a more
agreeable condition of enslavement, I don't know.

I am concerned about the Metal Gear Box's evidently mixed reviews. For
example, I hadn't run across the page at
http://www.techimo.com/articles/i82.html while doing my initial
exploration. What I saw was the Newegg reviews at
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...8&ATT=External+Enclosure&CMP=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r.
I do rely on Newegg. I don't think they tend to sell junk. But I am
missing something here.

The unit did not come with any printed documentation. There is a CD,
but it contains drivers and information that seems to be oriented
toward Windows 98 users, whereas I am running XP.

So if anyone can tell me how to hook this sucker up, I would be most
grateful. Best regards ...

The Taiwan candy factory rolls on... Products without docs...

This page led me to the following review...
http://www.iocombo.com/product/showproduct.php?productid=HD3MA_U2SA

Here is a review that included a picture of the controller board.
http://www.envynews.com/index.php?ID=532&page=2

Controller board picture
http://www.envynews.com/reviews/images/532/10.jpg

Chips used - Prolific PL-2507 IDE-USB chip
http://tech.prolific.com.tw/visitor/fcabdl.asp?fid=34571706

Sil3611CT80 SATA-PATA chip
http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-0024.pdf

Judging by the Prolific datasheet, the two chips will fight
for control of the drive. What this means, is you cannot have
both the SATA and USB cables plugged in at the same time.
The PL-2507 documents seem to suggest the Prolific chip will
"grab" the drive, the instant the USB cable is plugged to
the host. The SIL3611 is probably unaware that there is
another master on the bus. While there might be some
hidden custom communication between the chips, it just might
be that simple (two independent chips, unaware of one another).
(I don't have the SIL3611 datasheet to check further.)

I would suggest unplugging power from the external enclosure,
to ensure it gets reset. Unplug the USB cable.
Plug in the SATA cable, between host (like a SATA controller
card with PCI faceplate SATA connector, so the cable will
reach) and the drive, and then the computer should be able
to see the drive via the SATA bridge chip SIL3611. As long
as the PL-2507 cannot sense the presence of a USB cable,
it should remain "asleep".

As for mixing bridge chips with motherboard SATA controllers,
at least Intel does not approve of it. There were products like
the "serillel" adapter, for converting a PATA drive to have a
SATA interface, but Intel doesn't guarantee the resulting SATA
will work with an Intel Southbridge. I think this is just Intel
being cautious (worried about having to deal with tech support
issues), rather than there being a problem.

I just googled on SIL3611, and someone mentioned that the
Abit serillel2 adapter uses the same chip. When you use your
external enclosure, plugging in the external enclosure power supply,
and connecting a SATA cable from the enclosure to the host computer,
it is the equivalent of this product:

http://www.abit-usa.com/technology/serillel_new.php

Notice in this picture, that Abit suggests setting the PATA
disk drive to "Master". Maybe that will help ?

http://www.abit-usa.com/technology/images/serillel_d.jpg

Paul

 

[Paul]

Another complication is the whole matter of configuring the internal
SATA drive as an array of one. On boot, the FastTrack controller does
see both drives; it's Windows Explorer that doesn't. The controller
reports that the second drive is in a "Free" status -- which, I can
assure you, is not an apt description of the amount I have spent on
this little enterprise. How to convert that free drive into a more
agreeable condition of enslavement, I don't know.

It just occurred to me. The "Free" status means you haven't
declared the new drive as "an array of one", like your other
drive. Maybe once the drive has been set up by the RAID BIOS
screen, it'll appear in Windows, ready to go ? Maybe there is
some Fasttrak software you can run while in Windows, to change
the status from "Free" to "array of one" ? If you are not
careful, the RAID BIOS could try to combine the new drive
with the old one...

I wouldn't recommend the path you are taking here, as when using
the USB option, the drive interface is "vanilla IDE". When
connected to the Fasttrak, the Fasttrak could be using
a "reserved sector" to store the RAID info about the drive,
Depending on which interface you were using when you
formatted/partitioned the drive, a partition could become
invisible when plugged to one of the interfaces. Since you
have no data on the drive yet, if you insist on using the
Fasttrak and the USB methods with the enclosure, you may want
to test for interoperability once the drive is set up in Windows.
Connect to USB, set up multiple partitions, shut down, connect
to SATA, see if all partitions are present. Put one test file
on each partition, and see if the file stays there.

(I had an experience with a 20378 using its "ATA" driver, and
a Southbridge port, where the first partition disappeared when
my drive was connected to the 20378. It reappeared again, when
I moved the drive back to the Southbridge. That has made me
nervous about mixing RAID controllers and normal controllers,
no matter what "ATA" drivers are used for the RAID controller.)

A product like this one, uses a SIL3112. There are two ROM files
available for the SIL3112, one supporting RAID features, and
the other one does not. I assume this product has the non-RAID
ROM. I don't know if the reserved sector function is non-existent
with the non-RAID ROM or not. The main benefit of this product,
is the SATA connector on the PCI faceplate, which means you will
have more cable to work with.

VANTEC SATA PCI Card Model UGT-ST200 (SIL3112 based)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16815102102

Shielded SATA cables are intended to reduce electromagnetic
interference. The twisting together of the +/- signals in
the SATA data pairs (internal to the cable), helps to control
EMI from the SATA signals themselves, but any common mode
coupled signals can travel out on the cable. Turn on your TV set,
and attempt to receive non-cable (broadcast) signals. Observe the
TV with and without the SATA enclosure connected, to determine
whether EMI is going to be a problem for your neighbours. You'd
be surprised how much radio interference comes out of computers
(due to such things as the inadequate common mode filters used
on the 120V AC interface on an ATX PSU). Every computer cable
is a potential antenna.

Paul

 

[ray_woodcock]

Bingo! I hit Ctrl-F at boot to enter the FastBuild utility. I chose
the option to Define Array. The "Free" drive was the only option
appearing there. I changed the N to a Y. I guess this made it form a
second array. On reboot, it recognized it just fine, using the
internal/external SATA cable described earlier. No problems so far.

I had read some reviews by people who complained that the Metal Gear
Box worked fine, first time, but then Windows Explorer no longer saw
it. I think they were using the USB connection. Anyway, that happened
to me too. The first time I used USB, fine, great, there was my drive.
In reboots, though, I have not seen it when using the USB connector.
So this SATA connection option has saved the day for me.

Now I have to figure out what diagnostics to use to do a surface test
on these SATA drives. The Seagate Seatools that I just downloaded
earlier today is calling the SATA thing an unidentified controller.
Something like that, anyway. Maybe I already have something on one of
the CDs I got from Seagate or ASUS back when I bought the hardware, 2-3
years ago. But as I recall, all I've ever seen is an earlier version
of Seagate's Seatools.

Thanks for the responses. Diagnostics aside, I am all set to go.