Drivers..is it really that hard??

P

Puppy Breath

The WDK (Windows Driver Kit) was released early last November. So I'm
inclined to agree with the folks who think that some hardware vendors are
intentionally dragging their feet. After all, it costs them money to release
new drivers. They make money when they sell new products.

All throughout the beta people were asking for drivers. And the usual reply
from vendors was "we'll make them available when Vista ships". But I still
don't see a whole lot of drivers out there. On some of my older stuff the
manufacturers have announced that there will never be Vista drivers for the
product.
 
H

Homer

I am not a programmer but...is it really that difficult to write drivers?
It is hard to believe that Microsoft and all of the biggies that make
hardware devices cannot generate drivers for Vista (or any other OS for
that matter) on time for a major release. My company forced me to switch
to Vista and now my printer, scanner, palm pilot, yada, yada wont work.

Talk about the REAL cost of upgrading. Seems they do it on purpose.

Thanks for letting me rant...

JohnS
 
R

Richard Urban

The hardware manufacturers certainly do it on purpose. They just love it
when a new O/S is released. It gives them license to "discontinue"
development on older products to force you to purchase new items. They are
gambling that you will come back to them for your new printer, or whatever.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User
 
D

Dustin Harper

Kind of a consipracy theory, though, isn't it... :)

I have to disagree. Why alienate your customers with bad drivers? NVIDIA's
latest and greatest video card doesn't have stable drivers? What are you
going to go to? ATI. If Epson or HP didn't have drivers, you'd go to the
store and buy a Canon. Why? Better support.

Sure, they have SOME planned obsolesence, but it's expected. I just hope
it's not like XP: I don't want to run beta German drivers for my scanner (I
can't read German!). Not the fault of MS, though...

--
Dustin Harper
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.vistarip.com

--
 
M

Mike Hall - MS MVP

Homer

Microsoft don't make hardware.. the MS branded hardware is not made by them,
and even MS had to wait for the manufacturer to release drivers for the
keyboards and mice..


Homer said:
I am not a programmer but...is it really that difficult to write drivers?
It is hard to believe that Microsoft and all of the biggies that make
hardware devices cannot generate drivers for Vista (or any other OS for
that matter) on time for a major release. My company forced me to switch
to Vista and now my printer, scanner, palm pilot, yada, yada wont work.

Talk about the REAL cost of upgrading. Seems they do it on purpose.

Thanks for letting me rant...

JohnS

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/
 
N

Noozer

Dustin Harper said:
Kind of a consipracy theory, though, isn't it... :)

I have to disagree. Why alienate your customers with bad drivers? NVIDIA's
latest and greatest video card doesn't have stable drivers? What are you
going to go to? ATI. If Epson or HP didn't have drivers, you'd go to the
store and buy a Canon. Why? Better support.

They already have your money for the old hardware. They don't care if it
works or not. All they want is to generate more sales, so they won't shoot
themselves in the foot and let you use your old hardware for an extra 3
years.
 
R

Richard Urban

How about alienating your customers with NO drivers. That is what many
companies do.

Take Nvidia. All through the beta's and CP builds the Nvidia 5200 was
supported and ran Aero fine. Because they wanted you to buy a more expensive
card, they dropped Vista support for the 5200.

All the HW manufacturers do it.

Yes, it sucks.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User
 
D

Dustin Harper

True. But, our wallets are the ones that keep them in business. Keep them
shut, and they will stop with the crap. Pretty much the only way to make
your voice heard these days is to keep your money to yourself.

--
Dustin Harper
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.vistarip.com

--
 
B

BigJim

well there is one way to solve this problem, don't buy vista, of course you
may be forced into it.
I have vista and only have one printer/scanner that is not supported, guess
I am lucky.
One of the posters is right about how hardware manufactures love this,
especially the ones that make computers and printers. They take their
machines off the shelves and put out only vista machines, it doesn't take a
rocket guy (you thought I would write scientist) to figure it out.
 
O

Owen Smith

Re: Drivers..is it really that hard??

YES :)
The WDK (Windows Driver Kit) was released early last November

It was still in BETA. Beta tools can only produce (at best) beta drivers,
especially when these tools changed quite significantly until the RTM
version of the WDK (in November 2006). 3 Months to develop drivers is
still a very short time (especially if you have to support a lot of
products/operating systems/configurations/...)

Some driver architectures changed from XP (printers and graphics drivers
mainly), so these have to be rewritten from scratch.
 
C

Conor

Homer said:
I am not a programmer but...is it really that difficult to write drivers?
It is hard to believe that Microsoft and all of the biggies that make
hardware devices cannot generate drivers for Vista (or any other OS for
that matter) on time for a major release. My company forced me to switch
to Vista and now my printer, scanner, palm pilot, yada, yada wont work.

Talk about the REAL cost of upgrading. Seems they do it on purpose.

Thanks for letting me rant...
No problem.

The problem with Vista is that the driver model has changed - they're
not allowed access to areas they were in XP - so therefore the driver
authors have had to learn how to write for Vista.
 
G

Guest

Microsoft also write 90% of most drivers (they don't trust hardware mfg to
write good software). MS write the base driver, mfg write a mini driver with
just what is different for their hardware. Especially in printers and modems
where a driver can just be a text file with settings.
 
G

Guest

What do you think minidriver means then.

Win32 Device Driver Architecture
Currently, support for new buses and new classes of PC peripherals poses new
challenges for driver development. New buses increase the number of devices
and requirements for device drivers. Increasing integration of multifunction
devices further complicates driver development. At the same time,
low-latency interactive applications demand tighter integration of software
and hardware. For 1997, each of these factors are accounted for in the
evolution of the unified Win32 Driver Model for Windows 95 and Windows NT.
WDM allows a single driver source (x86 binary) to support a new bus or a new
device on both Windows 95 and Windows NT.

Key goals for WDM are to simplify driver development by providing the
flexibility to support new and innovative hardware while also reducing the
number and complexity of drivers that must be developed. WDM must also
provide a common framework for Plug and Play and device power management.
WDM is a key component to enable innovative device support that is simple
and convenient to use.

To achieve these goals, WDM is based on a common set of services provided by
the Windows NT I/O subsystem. WDM advances consist of a set of kernel
extensions to support Plug and Play, device power management, and
low-latency streaming I/O. In addition to common platform services and
extensions, WDM implements a modular, layered class minidriver structure.
Class drivers implement functional interfaces required to support a generic
bus, protocol, or device class. The generic nature of class drivers offers
the opportunity for standardization of logical device command sets,
protocols, and bus interfaces necessary for code reusability. WDM support
for standard class interfaces reduces the number and complexity of device
drivers required for both Windows 95 and Windows NT.

Minidrivers allow extension of generic class drivers to support a specific
device protocol or physical programming interface. For example, a minidriver
can be implemented to extend an IEEE 1394 bus class driver to support a
specific host controller programming interface. Minidrivers are easy to
develop because they simply extend generic class driver interface functions.
Although minidrivers are simple by design, the benefits of reusable
minidriver modules might also be realized in support of standard device
programming interfaces. An example of this is the USB host controller
interfaces (OpenHCI or UHCI).

The flexibility and uniform interfaces of the modular WDM architecture
allows the operating system to dynamically configure various driver modules
to support a specific device. A typical driver stack might consist of
generic device, protocol, and bus class drivers linked by protocol-specific
and bus-specific minidrivers. For example, the operating system can
configure a driver stack to support a camera whose commands are defined by
the Imaging class and delivered by the Function Control Protocol (FCP) class
to the IEEE 1394 bus class. This flexibility also makes it easy to support a
multifunction device by simply implementing a minidriver to interface the
multifunction hardware to several device class interfaces. The dynamic
construction of WDM driver stacks is key to Plug and Play device support.

WDM services enable a common low-latency model for Windows NT and Windows
95. WDM offers multiple levels of execution priority including kernel mode
and non-kernel mode threads, IRQ levels, and Deferred Procedure Calls (DPC).
All WDM class and minidrivers execute as privileged threads (not interrupted
by CPU scheduler) in kernel mode (ring 0). Thirty-two IRQ levels are
available to prioritize hardware interrupt service. For each interrupt, a
DPC can be queued to execute on completion of the IRQ service routine with
interrupts enabled. DPCs enhance system response to interrupts by
effectively reducing the time during which interrupts are disabled. For
x86-based PC systems that use multiple processors, support under Windows NT
for interrupts is based on the MultiProcessor Specification Version 1.4 from
Intel.

For applications requiring life-like multimedia, WDM provides low latency
interfaces for processing I/O streams in kernel mode. WDM streaming
interfaces will be exposed through standard WDM class interfaces. With WDM,
a media stream can be processed completely in kernel mode by one or more
software filters and device drivers. WDM streaming enables direct hardware
access for streaming I/O acceleration, eliminates latency associated with
transitions between non-kernel mode and kernel mode, and also eliminates the
need for intermediate I/O buffering.


Richard G. Harper said:
Sadly, that is simply not true.

--
Richard G. Harper [MVP Shell/User] (e-mail address removed)
* NEW! Catch my blog ... http://msmvps.com/blogs/rgharper/
* PLEASE post all messages and replies in the newsgroups
* The Website - http://rgharper.mvps.org/
* HELP us help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm


Microsoft also write 90% of most drivers (they don't trust hardware mfg
to write good software). MS write the base driver, mfg write a mini
driver with just what is different for their hardware. Especially in
printers and modems where a driver can just be a text file with settings.
 
P

Puppy Breath

It was still in BETA.

Oh, I didn't realize that was a beta. That certainly does change things.
You're right, they really haven't had much time to pull together a lot of
drivers.
 
O

Owen Smith

"Microsoft also write 90% of most drivers"
On my pretty fresh Vista system, only 70% of drivers are written by MS. A
lot of drivers shipped with the OS, but were not written by MS.

"(they don't trust hardware mfg to write good software)"
Thats what the Windows Logo programs are for - make manufacturers produce
better drivers.

"MS write the base driver, mfg write a mini driver with just what is
different for their hardware"
MS have written most of the basic bus drivers, like USB, Firewire,... but
a lot of additional features need custom drivers (like programmable
mice/keyboards/joysticks, specialist hardware, DirectX 10 graphics support)

"Especially in printers and modems where a driver can just be a text file
with settings."
so MS has to think of all the possibilities? and encode that data in a
standard format that everyone will agree with?
 
H

Homer

No problem.

The problem with Vista is that the driver model has changed - they're
not allowed access to areas they were in XP - so therefore the driver
authors have had to learn how to write for Vista.

Well, I learned a lot! Especially I learned never ever aspire to being a
programmer that writes drivers! I guess my original question was just
that it seems that way too much of a big deal is made over writing a
driver. Understand though, that comes from near complete ignorance of the
subject! Now I am sounding like a politican!!

I just suspect that if I were MS and dropping a bundle on a brand new
shiney OS, I would do what I could to enhance the customer satisfaction by
including drivers for more "old" stuff. Like my 6 months old scanner.

JohnS
 
M

Mike Hall - MS MVP

Homer

According to the Microsoft Upgrade Advisor, the Canon Lide 30 scanner does
not work with Vista.. in actual fact it does, but nobody has told Microsoft
yet.. the XP drivers on the supplied Canon CD are ok

MS can't supply drivers if they have not been made aware..


Homer said:
Well, I learned a lot! Especially I learned never ever aspire to being a
programmer that writes drivers! I guess my original question was just
that it seems that way too much of a big deal is made over writing a
driver. Understand though, that comes from near complete ignorance of the
subject! Now I am sounding like a politican!!

I just suspect that if I were MS and dropping a bundle on a brand new
shiney OS, I would do what I could to enhance the customer satisfaction by
including drivers for more "old" stuff. Like my 6 months old scanner.

JohnS

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/
 

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