Cheap system... (Abit NF7-M ?)

Discussion in 'Processors' started by keith, Sep 29, 2004.

  1. keith

    keith Guest

    Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
    Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
    business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

    History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
    she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
    (who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
    what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
    (all from NewEgg):

    Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
    Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
    Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
    Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
    Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
    CD bunrner - Lite On $29
    DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
    -----
    $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)

    The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
    and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
    comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
    put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
    unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

    Comments?

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Sep 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. keith

    Tony Hill Guest

    On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >
    >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
    >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
    >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.


    Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
    with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
    can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
    The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
    you stick with PC2700 memory. I don't know if it was just the
    particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
    Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
    integrated video.

    Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
    not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
    Windows land this shouldn't be an issue. However what WAS an issue I
    ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
    picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
    and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
    re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
    get the drivers working properly on this system.


    In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
    an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
    Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
    the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
    static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
    it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
    video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
    performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
    backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
    is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
    then you're pretty limited.

    >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
    >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
    >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
    >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
    >(all from NewEgg):
    >
    >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
    >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
    >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
    >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
    >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
    >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
    >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
    > -----
    > $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
    >
    >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
    >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
    >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
    >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
    >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).


    You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
    buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
    often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
    a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
    they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
    rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
    quality case isn't a bad idea).

    As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
    and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
    add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
    cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
    that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
    but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
    quality stuff either.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
     
    Tony Hill, Sep 29, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. In article <>, hilla_nospam_
    says...
    > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    > >
    > >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
    > >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
    > >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

    >
    > Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
    > with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
    > can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
    > The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
    > you stick with PC2700 memory.


    I chose PC2700 memory to match the processor's FSB. Crucial lists all
    varieties (PC2100/2700/3200/4000) as compatible,though decided not to
    go with them because of cost (I'd spend the $10 difference, but..)

    > I don't know if it was just the
    > particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
    > Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
    > integrated video.


    The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
    look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
    memory is pretty amazing though.

    In what other ways is the video "picky"?

    > Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
    > not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
    > Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.


    Win98 (I have a license "left over").

    > However what WAS an issue I
    > ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
    > picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
    > and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
    > re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
    > get the drivers working properly on this system.


    It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
    to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
    the effort, particularly given your input here.
    >
    > In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
    > an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
    > Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
    > the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
    > static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
    > it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
    > video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
    > performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
    > backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
    > is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
    > then you're pretty limited.


    "ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
    clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)
    >
    > >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
    > >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
    > >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
    > >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
    > >(all from NewEgg):
    > >
    > >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
    > >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
    > >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
    > >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
    > >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
    > >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
    > >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
    > > -----
    > > $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
    > >
    > >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
    > >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
    > >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
    > >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
    > >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

    >
    > You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
    > buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
    > often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
    > a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
    > they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
    > rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
    > quality case isn't a bad idea).


    Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
    around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
    and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

    > As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
    > and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
    > add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
    > cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
    > that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
    > but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
    > quality stuff either.


    Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and
    sold through NewEgg (one stop shopping). Worth some thought though.
    Maybe I'll take a flier on bottom-feeding memory and hope NewEgg stands
    behind it, at least up-front.

    Thanks for the input.

    --
    Keith
     
    Keith R. Williams, Sep 29, 2004
    #3
  4. keith

    Tony Hill Guest

    On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:07:21 -0400, Keith R. Williams <>
    wrote:
    >
    >In article <>, hilla_nospam_
    > says...
    >> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >> I don't know if it was just the
    >> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
    >> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
    >> integrated video.

    >
    >The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
    >look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
    >memory is pretty amazing though.


    Yup, that one kind of blew me away. It didn't play nice with my
    PC2100 memory either, despite the fact that I was running at a
    133/266MHz bus speed processor.

    >In what other ways is the video "picky"?


    Well, for the brief bit that I had it running in Windows the drivers
    were being a bit uncooperative, though that may have been more related
    to the problems I was having installing overtop of a previous install.

    >> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
    >> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
    >> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.

    >
    >Win98 (I have a license "left over").
    >
    >> However what WAS an issue I
    >> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
    >> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
    >> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
    >> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
    >> get the drivers working properly on this system.

    >
    >It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
    >to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
    >the effort, particularly given your input here.


    Good plan!
    >
    >> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
    >> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
    >> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
    >> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
    >> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
    >> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
    >> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
    >> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
    >> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
    >> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
    >> then you're pretty limited.

    >
    >"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
    >clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)


    Hehe, yeah, I have to say that it's not exactly a name that inspires
    confidence. FWIW it's not quite PCChips stuff, it's actually an Asus
    brand name but with all production outsourced to ECS. Of course,
    given that ECS also fabs PCChips boards I wouldn't be surprised if
    there were some similarities between the designs.

    >Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
    >around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
    >and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).


    Well that's what ya get for living in the middle of nowhere! :>

    >> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
    >> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
    >> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
    >> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
    >> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
    >> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
    >> quality stuff either.

    >
    >Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and


    Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
    memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
    memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
    wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
     
    Tony Hill, Sep 30, 2004
    #4
  5. keith

    chrisv Guest

    Tony Hill <> wrote:

    >Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
    >memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
    >memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
    >wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.


    At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
    been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
    work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
    which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
    worked great and it's also very competitively priced.
     
    chrisv, Sep 30, 2004
    #5
  6. On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <> wrote:

    >
    >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
    >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
    >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.


    I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
    full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
    at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
    more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
    at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
    within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
    mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.

    Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
    chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
    2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time for a
    few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as smooth.

    The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on the
    drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy partition+format
    utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$ one. Symantec
    Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot records? - and I
    had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.

    >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
    >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
    >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
    >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
    >(all from NewEgg):
    >
    >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
    >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
    >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
    >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
    >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
    >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
    >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
    > -----
    > $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
    >
    >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
    >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
    >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
    >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
    >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).


    I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
    nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
    for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:)

    >Comments?


    Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
    his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:), never liked Abit but I
    have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given their
    popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

    I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the SX635BII
    case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41. the price
    is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than their
    Chenming jobs but should be OK - let us know how you get on with the build
    on it. Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:)

    On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've seen
    is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not been
    running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible for some
    systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to get it to
    run. Here's an interesting note:
    http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

    On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead of
    Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows it as
    running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if that's
    chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD. It's recommended by MSI
    for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since Kingmax is located in
    Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away from some of the mbrd
    makers. The only thing I don't like about it is the chip source is
    obliterated with their own logo.

    Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
    standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
    same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

    Good luck with it and keep us posted.

    Rgds, George Macdonald

    "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
     
    George Macdonald, Oct 1, 2004
    #6
  7. keith

    keith Guest

    On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
    >>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
    >>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

    >
    > I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
    > full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
    > at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
    > more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
    > at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
    > within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
    > mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.


    I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
    option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
    512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
    $400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.

    [*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
    floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
    my USR external modems.

    > Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
    > chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
    > 2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time
    > for a few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as
    > smooth.


    That's what I'm hopeing. Again, I have a Win98 license or two I've never
    used. I'd like to go XP for her, but the budget doesn't allow such things.

    > The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on
    > the drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy
    > partition+format utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$
    > one. Symantec Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot
    > records? - and I had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.



    Well... The proposal I gave her was a WD drive, to save another $10 or
    so. There are many things I'd do differently (Crucial is one), but...

    >>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two
    >>drives, and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where
    >>that's comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what
    >>one can put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here
    >>a long- unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

    >
    > I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
    > nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
    > for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:)


    Well, Tony's suggestion of the Asus board, and some skimping on
    the wish-list elsewhere, allowed at least the option of 2x256MB. From
    what I can tell on the web, the board only has two DIMM slots and it's a
    dual-channel board, so it's now or never. A DVD-ROM can always be added
    later, for the price of a ham sandwitch. That's what I'm suggesting,
    anyway.

    >>Comments?

    >
    > Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
    > his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:), never liked Abit but
    > I have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given
    > their popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.


    I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world" as
    his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for my
    son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?) years
    ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to several
    others in the museum (moseleum ;).

    > I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
    > SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41.
    > the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than
    > their Chenming jobs but should be OK -


    I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
    SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
    DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive I
    have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables. :-(
    I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from the
    InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when the
    snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).

    > let us know how you get on with the build on it.


    Sure, but I hope the story is boring!

    > Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:)


    Actually, I was thinking about that. ...for a picosecond or ten
    (actually spent all day trying to find 10ps - ah, Monday's another day!).

    > On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
    > seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
    > been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
    > for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to
    > get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
    > http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp


    Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(

    > On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead
    > of Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows
    > it as running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if
    > that's chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD.


    ....the same problem I had years ago trying to figure out if
    boards/chipsets supported ECC. Sure it works, but does it *do* anything.

    > It's
    > recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since
    > Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away
    > from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't like about it is
    > the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.


    I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory on
    crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this stuff?
    Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since KingMax and
    a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price. Were it me, I'd
    have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no good deed goes
    unpunished.

    > Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
    > standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
    > same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.


    ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)

    > Good luck with it and keep us posted.


    Again, I'm hopeing that it'll be too boring to report here. Other than
    my SATA issues with Linux my Opteron system was a rather boring build too.
    It just worked.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 2, 2004
    #7
  8. keith

    keith Guest

    On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:51:32 -0500, chrisv wrote:

    > Tony Hill <> wrote:
    >
    >>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
    >>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
    >>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
    >>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

    >
    > At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
    > been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
    > work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
    > which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
    > worked great and it's also very competitively priced.


    "Buffalo" was the same price as KVR. Even Crucial isn't really *that*
    much higher ($8/256MB stick), when one considers shippping. Me? I pay
    the money. In this case it's not my money though; obviously others have
    different priorities.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 2, 2004
    #8
  9. On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:16:12 -0400, keith <> wrote:

    >On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
    >


    >I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
    >option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
    >512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
    >$400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.
    >
    >[*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
    >floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
    >my USR external modems.


    Sounds good - it'll be a helluva system for the $$. Oh BTW, just in case,
    I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
    Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:)) which I've only
    seen in-store at Comp-USA so far. It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my
    criteria, the keys feel very nice and it comes with a rubber wrist rest...
    I just ignore the "multi-media" button crap.

    >>>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two
    >>>drives, and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where
    >>>that's comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what
    >>>one can put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here
    >>>a long- unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

    >>
    >> I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
    >> nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
    >> for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:)


    >> Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
    >> his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:), never liked Abit but
    >> I have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given
    >> their popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

    >
    >I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world" as
    >his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for my
    >son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?) years
    >ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to several
    >others in the museum (moseleum ;).


    We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT. The
    boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending $$:)...
    though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.

    >> I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
    >> SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41.
    >> the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than
    >> their Chenming jobs but should be OK -

    >
    >I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
    >SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
    >DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive I
    >have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables. :-(
    >I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from the
    >InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when the
    >snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).


    Are you running both case exhaust fans in the SX-1040BII? That's the only
    real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata regulates the speed of the
    case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S, with a special 12V
    connector. If you ever need a 2nd P/S or case, you could get a Truepower
    and do a swap; if you needed a bare case to do that, the Antecs are made by
    Chenming and theirs come with no P/S.

    >> On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
    >> seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
    >> been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
    >> for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to
    >> get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
    >> http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

    >
    >Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(


    Yep but isn't the Jedec standard 2.5V for DDR-DIMMs? Kingston specs their
    HyperX stuff for 2.6V in the Data Sheet and the "UL" parts quote timings
    for a 2.7V reference.

    >> It's
    >> recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since
    >> Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away
    >> from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't like about it is
    >> the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.

    >
    >I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory on
    >crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this stuff?
    >Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since KingMax and
    >a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price. Were it me, I'd
    >have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no good deed goes
    >unpunished.


    Those TW module makers are coming on pretty strong just now - add in their
    "fashion memory" stuff, like the Geil wafer-level chip-scale packaging, and
    they are taking market share. So far I've no complaints with the Kingmax
    SuperRAM.

    >> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
    >> standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
    >> same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

    >
    >ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)


    As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which runs
    right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install type or
    servers.

    Rgds, George Macdonald

    "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
     
    George Macdonald, Oct 3, 2004
    #9
  10. keith

    keith Guest

    On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:17:45 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:16:12 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
    >>

    >
    >>I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
    >>option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
    >>512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
    >>$400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.
    >>
    >>[*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
    >>floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
    >>my USR external modems.

    >
    > Sounds good - it'll be a helluva system for the $$.


    I was very surprised at what can be had for such small money. Perhaps I
    souldn't have been since I bought bigtime-upscale a few months ago for not
    hugely more.

    > Oh BTW, just in case,
    > I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
    > Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:)) which I've only
    > seen in-store at Comp-USA so far.


    She has a keyboard (likely a POS). I'm running short of good[*] ones, so
    I guess I'll have to start collecting 'em again. ;-)

    [*] good == Model-M (for the newbs here)

    > It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my
    > criteria, the keys feel very nice and it comes with a rubber wrist
    > rest... I just ignore the "multi-media" button crap.


    Why USB? I have no interest in USB keyboards. Cameras, sticks, media
    readers, sure. I don't understand the purpose behind USB keyboards and
    rodents. No wires saved.

    <snip>

    >>I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world"
    >>as his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for
    >>my son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?)
    >>years ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to
    >>several others in the museum (moseleum ;).

    >
    > We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT. The
    > boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending $$:)...
    > though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.


    I gave my PA-2007 away. ...to someone I've never met in person. I'm not
    scott, ratehr English (well, my name anyway). No, I like nice things. I
    can't stand busting my butt because the boss won't spend a nickel. I get
    steamed becasue they bought whatever rodents we wanted (ergonomics, ya'
    know) and then are too cheap to buy the batteries.

    >>> I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
    >>> SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for
    >>> $41. the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds
    >>> lighter than their Chenming jobs but should be OK -

    >>
    >>I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
    >>SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
    >>DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive
    >>I have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables.
    >> :-( I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from
    >>the InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when
    >>the snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).

    >
    > Are you running both case exhaust fans in the SX-1040BII?


    Yes.

    >That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata regulates the
    > speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S, with
    > a special 12V connector.


    The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses, no?
    I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm not to happy with
    this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie). I also
    thought the Tyan board would do a better job with the fans. I plan on
    getting them (the 1040 and Q500) off the desktop where they'll be less
    objectionable, but those plans seem to be slipping out big-time (last
    chances to work outside, furnace acting up, and drier just kicked a belt
    yesterday).

    > If you ever need a 2nd P/S or case, you could
    > get a Truepower and do a swap; if you needed a bare case to do that, the
    > Antecs are made by Chenming and theirs come with no P/S.


    Power supplies are just about as expensive as cases (whihg the same PS,
    even). My Q500 has a PCP&C "silencer" in it. ...but things do change. ;-)

    >>> On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
    >>> seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
    >>> been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
    >>> for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V
    >>> to get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
    >>> http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

    >>
    >>Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(

    >
    > Yep but isn't the Jedec standard 2.5V for DDR-DIMMs? Kingston specs
    > their HyperX stuff for 2.6V in the Data Sheet and the "UL" parts quote
    > timings for a 2.7V reference.


    Excellent point! I hadn't thought about that. I will look further before
    I comitt my friend's money (she gave me a check tonight).

    >>> It's
    >>> recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe;
    >>> since Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short
    >>> distance away from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't
    >>> like about it is the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.

    >>
    >>I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory
    >>on crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this
    >>stuff? Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since
    >>KingMax and a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price.
    >>Were it me, I'd have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no
    >>good deed goes unpunished.

    >
    > Those TW module makers are coming on pretty strong just now - add in
    > their "fashion memory" stuff, like the Geil wafer-level chip-scale
    > packaging, and they are taking market share. So far I've no complaints
    > with the Kingmax SuperRAM.


    Kingmax was the same price as the rest, so I'll look again. Were it my
    money, I'd buy Crucial and blow a few bucks. As it was, I had a rather
    strict budget. The Athlon 2400+ (retail) seemed to be the sweet spot.

    >>> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with
    >>> the standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but
    >>> all the same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

    >>
    >>ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)

    >
    > As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which runs
    > right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install type
    > or servers.


    I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when it
    only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything with
    it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the power-cord out
    when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around the computer).

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 4, 2004
    #10
  11. On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:39:48 -0400, keith <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:17:45 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:


    >> Oh BTW, just in case,
    >> I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
    >> Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:)) which I've only
    >> seen in-store at Comp-USA so far.

    >
    >She has a keyboard (likely a POS). I'm running short of good[*] ones, so
    >I guess I'll have to start collecting 'em again. ;-)
    >
    >[*] good == Model-M (for the newbs here)


    Do you have a source for "collecting"? There *are* a lot of crappy
    keyboards around and the Memorex one surprised me at how good it feels for
    $20.... $15. for the beige one.

    >> It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my
    >> criteria, the keys feel very nice and it comes with a rubber wrist
    >> rest... I just ignore the "multi-media" button crap.

    >
    >Why USB? I have no interest in USB keyboards. Cameras, sticks, media
    >readers, sure. I don't understand the purpose behind USB keyboards and
    >rodents. No wires saved.


    Especially in the office, newer laptops, like T4xs, come with no PS/2
    connector at all... unless you get a dock. IOW the interface is still
    there but not the connector - damned stupid but.... I also like to have
    the possibility of two interfaces, if only for potential troubleshooting,
    and serial is dead now.

    ><snip>
    >> We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT. The
    >> boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending $$:)...
    >> though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.

    >
    >I gave my PA-2007 away. ...to someone I've never met in person. I'm not
    >scott, ratehr English (well, my name anyway). No, I like nice things. I
    >can't stand busting my butt because the boss won't spend a nickel. I get
    >steamed becasue they bought whatever rodents we wanted (ergonomics, ya'
    >know) and then are too cheap to buy the batteries.


    Err, in this case the boss is the one using the PA-2007, with a K6-2
    running at 400MHz - let him suffer.:) He keeps telling me "this is fast
    enough for me"... so be it!

    >>That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata regulates the
    >> speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S, with
    >> a special 12V connector.

    >
    >The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses, no?


    Yes but the speed of the rear case fans (& P/S fan of course) is what makes
    the big difference IME. In the office I have a couple of Antec 660AMGs (no
    longer sold) which came with Truepower P/S, with the special case fan
    connector to a single 80mm fan, and they are *much* quieter than the
    SX635BIIs with Smartpower P/S. Antec still sells the 1080AMG which has a
    Truepower P/S and two 80mm case fans so that config is "supported" and
    quieter. FWIW I'm not thrilled with the AMG Series paint coating - it's
    just paint which scratches easily, compared to the "traditional" baked
    enamel of the SX Series. Dunno what's on the Sonata but I'm seriously
    considering it for my upcoming home upgrade.

    >I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm not to happy with
    >this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie).


    There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I suppose
    but they've worked OK for me.

    >>>> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with
    >>>> the standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but
    >>>> all the same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.
    >>>
    >>>ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)

    >>
    >> As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which runs
    >> right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install type
    >> or servers.

    >
    >I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when it
    >only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything with
    >it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the power-cord out
    >when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around the computer).


    It "failed me" once when I did a resize of C: from its Windows(98)
    interface and the Exit to DOS batch file crapped out on me at about 70%
    done - bloody mess... live & learn. BootitNG hasn't failed me yet - you
    just cancel its (boot manager) install and run Partition Management from
    the floppy. It also has a "ghost" utility to take a compressed drive image
    to CD/DVD-R/RW which supports multiple CD/DVDs. Definitely worth the
    $34.95.

    Rgds, George Macdonald

    "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
     
    George Macdonald, Oct 4, 2004
    #11
  12. keith

    keith Guest

    On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    > On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 21:39:48 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:17:45 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    >
    >>> Oh BTW, just in case,
    >>> I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
    >>> Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:)) which I've only
    >>> seen in-store at Comp-USA so far.

    >>
    >>She has a keyboard (likely a POS). I'm running short of good[*] ones, so
    >>I guess I'll have to start collecting 'em again. ;-)
    >>
    >>[*] good == Model-M (for the newbs here)

    >
    > Do you have a source for "collecting"?


    Sure, "dumpster diving". Tons of perfectly good systems are scrapped.

    > There *are* a lot of crappy keyboards around and the Memorex one
    > surprised me at how good it feels for $20.... $15. for the beige one.


    The black ones don't feel as good, for $15? ;-)

    >>> It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my criteria, the keys feel very
    >>> nice and it comes with a rubber wrist rest... I just ignore the
    >>> "multi-media" button crap.

    >>
    >>Why USB? I have no interest in USB keyboards. Cameras, sticks, media
    >>readers, sure. I don't understand the purpose behind USB keyboards and
    >>rodents. No wires saved.

    >
    > Especially in the office, newer laptops, like T4xs, come with no PS/2
    > connector at all... unless you get a dock. IOW the interface is still
    > there but not the connector - damned stupid but.... I also like to have
    > the possibility of two interfaces, if only for potential
    > troubleshooting, and serial is dead now.


    No PS/2 mouse? The ThinkPads we have have the PS/2 keyboard and mouse
    connector in one (an unused pin is used for the keyboard data). Of course
    I generally use a dock or port-replicator if I'm using external widgets.

    >><snip>
    >>> We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT.
    >>> The boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending
    >>> $$:)... though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.

    >>
    >>I gave my PA-2007 away. ...to someone I've never met in person. I'm
    >>not scott, ratehr English (well, my name anyway). No, I like nice
    >>things. I can't stand busting my butt because the boss won't spend a
    >>nickel. I get steamed becasue they bought whatever rodents we wanted
    >>(ergonomics, ya' know) and then are too cheap to buy the batteries.

    >
    > Err, in this case the boss is the one using the PA-2007, with a K6-2
    > running at 400MHz - let him suffer.:) He keeps telling me "this is
    > fast enough for me"... so be it!


    Some boss! I remember when the PHB's took all the new equipment to type
    their correspondence on - connected as a terminal to a mainframe.

    >>>That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata
    >>>regulates the
    >>> speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S,
    >>> with a special 12V connector.

    >>
    >>The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses,
    >>no?

    >
    > Yes but the speed of the rear case fans (& P/S fan of course) is what
    > makes the big difference IME.


    Right, and a 120mm fan doesn't have to do the RPMs of an 80mm fan to move
    the same air.

    > In the office I have a couple of Antec
    > 660AMGs (no longer sold) which came with Truepower P/S, with the special
    > case fan connector to a single 80mm fan, and they are *much* quieter
    > than the SX635BIIs with Smartpower P/S. Antec still sells the 1080AMG
    > which has a Truepower P/S and two 80mm case fans so that config is
    > "supported" and quieter. FWIW I'm not thrilled with the AMG Series
    > paint coating - it's just paint which scratches easily, compared to the
    > "traditional" baked enamel of the SX Series. Dunno what's on the Sonata
    > but I'm seriously considering it for my upcoming home upgrade.


    I somehow got the CFO's approval to buy a Sonata (don't know if I'm going
    to execute though) to replace teh SX1040, which would then replace the
    Q500, which would likely move to the basement to be used as a file server.
    I have too much work to do around the house to go that far though. Soon
    the snow will fly though.

    >>I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm
    >>not to happy with
    >>this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie).

    >
    > There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
    > suppose but they've worked OK for me.


    I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
    isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
    connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
    FSB and memory. ;-)

    >>>>> Oh it just occurred to me that there

    was some limit on HDD size with
    >>>>> the standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but
    >>>>> all the same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s
    >>>>> site.
    >>>>
    >>>>ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic.
    >>>>;-)
    >>>
    >>> As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which
    >>> runs right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install
    >>> type or servers.

    >>
    >>I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when it
    >>only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything with
    >>it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the power-cord
    >>out when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around the
    >>computer).

    >
    > It "failed me" once when I did a resize of C: from its Windows(98)
    > interface and the Exit to DOS batch file crapped out on me at about 70%
    > done - bloody mess... live & learn. BootitNG hasn't failed me yet - you
    > just cancel its (boot manager) install and run Partition Management from
    > the floppy. It also has a "ghost" utility to take a compressed drive
    > image to CD/DVD-R/RW which supports multiple CD/DVDs. Definitely worth
    > the $34.95.


    Maybe I'll take a look. What's the license like. PQM is pretty
    restrictive.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 5, 2004
    #12
  13. keith

    willbill Guest

    keith wrote:

    > On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:


    >> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
    >> suppose but they've worked OK for me.


    > I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
    > isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
    > connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
    > FSB and memory. ;-)


    the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
    cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
    has a long list of MANY round IDE cables. :)

    best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra
    and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy) included with
    a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)

    bill
     
    willbill, Oct 5, 2004
    #13
  14. keith

    willbill Guest

    keith wrote:

    > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:


    ....

    >> Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
    >> chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
    >> 2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time
    >> for a few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as
    >> smooth.


    ....

    > That's what I'm hopeing. Again, I have a Win98 license or two I've never
    > used. I'd like to go XP for her, but the budget doesn't allow such things.



    for win/dos, 98SE is THE one (forget WinMe,
    coz it is a TOTAL POS!)

    just do NOT put more than 512MB of memory
    on 9x or you WILL be very sorry!!

    re WinXP, i'd go with Win2000 SP4
    (that's a hunch and not experience)

    bill
     
    willbill, Oct 5, 2004
    #14
  15. Trying to steal the thunder from Arnold, willbill <> on Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:02:14 -0500 spoke:

    >just do NOT put more than 512MB of memory
    >on 9x or you WILL be very sorry!!


    Most people are fully capable of adding
    the 2 simple lines to the win.ini file
    that completely eliminate the problem
    that more than 512 megs of ram causes with 98.







    --

    The truth is out there,

    but it's not interesting enough for most people.
     
    Never anonymous Bud, Oct 5, 2004
    #15
  16. On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:


    >> There *are* a lot of crappy keyboards around and the Memorex one
    >> surprised me at how good it feels for $20.... $15. for the beige one.

    >
    >The black ones don't feel as good, for $15? ;-)


    Sorry - they are basically the same keyboard. The dull chrome finish with
    black keys costs $5. extra.

    >> Especially in the office, newer laptops, like T4xs, come with no PS/2
    >> connector at all... unless you get a dock. IOW the interface is still
    >> there but not the connector - damned stupid but.... I also like to have
    >> the possibility of two interfaces, if only for potential
    >> troubleshooting, and serial is dead now.

    >
    >No PS/2 mouse? The ThinkPads we have have the PS/2 keyboard and mouse
    >connector in one (an unused pin is used for the keyboard data). Of course
    >I generally use a dock or port-replicator if I'm using external widgets.


    The T40s I got have no PS/2 connector at all - haven't looked to see if
    it's been "restored" in T41s.

    >>>>That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata
    >>>>regulates the
    >>>> speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S,
    >>>> with a special 12V connector.
    >>>
    >>>The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses,
    >>>no?

    >>
    >> Yes but the speed of the rear case fans (& P/S fan of course) is what
    >> makes the big difference IME.

    >
    >Right, and a 120mm fan doesn't have to do the RPMs of an 80mm fan to move
    >the same air.


    True but the variable speed fans mentioned below do make a big
    difference... and from what I hear, pushing the system doesn't make any
    noticeable increase in noise.

    >> In the office I have a couple of Antec
    >> 660AMGs (no longer sold) which came with Truepower P/S, with the special
    >> case fan connector to a single 80mm fan, and they are *much* quieter
    >> than the SX635BIIs with Smartpower P/S. Antec still sells the 1080AMG
    >> which has a Truepower P/S and two 80mm case fans so that config is
    >> "supported" and quieter. FWIW I'm not thrilled with the AMG Series
    >> paint coating - it's just paint which scratches easily, compared to the
    >> "traditional" baked enamel of the SX Series. Dunno what's on the Sonata
    >> but I'm seriously considering it for my upcoming home upgrade.

    >
    >I somehow got the CFO's approval to buy a Sonata (don't know if I'm going
    >to execute though) to replace teh SX1040, which would then replace the
    >Q500, which would likely move to the basement to be used as a file server.
    >I have too much work to do around the house to go that far though. Soon
    >the snow will fly though.


    I thought I recalled you wanted an Extended ATX case??... though I wasn't
    sure if it was needed for the Tyan.

    >>>I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm
    >>>not to happy with
    >>>this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie).

    >>
    >> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
    >> suppose but they've worked OK for me.

    >
    >I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
    >isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
    >connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
    >FSB and memory. ;-)


    Ah, two drives off the one cable - that's always been a PITA with IDE
    unless the drives were right next to each other.

    >>>I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when it
    >>>only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything with
    >>>it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the power-cord
    >>>out when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around the
    >>>computer).

    >>
    >> It "failed me" once when I did a resize of C: from its Windows(98)
    >> interface and the Exit to DOS batch file crapped out on me at about 70%
    >> done - bloody mess... live & learn. BootitNG hasn't failed me yet - you
    >> just cancel its (boot manager) install and run Partition Management from
    >> the floppy. It also has a "ghost" utility to take a compressed drive
    >> image to CD/DVD-R/RW which supports multiple CD/DVDs. Definitely worth
    >> the $34.95.

    >
    >Maybe I'll take a look. What's the license like. PQM is pretty
    >restrictive.


    Yep and that's always been my bleat with PQM - at one time the wanted
    ~$900. just to be able to do a repartition of a Win2K Server. It did a lot
    more of course but of no interest to me. BootitNG is a download and try it
    - I don't see any restrictions.... yet.

    Rgds, George Macdonald

    "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
     
    George Macdonald, Oct 5, 2004
    #16
  17. keith

    keith Guest

    On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:58:31 -0500, willbill wrote:

    > keith wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    >
    >>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
    >>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.

    >
    >> I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
    >> isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
    >> connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
    >> FSB and memory. ;-)

    >
    > the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
    > cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
    > has a long list of MANY round IDE cables. :)


    Well... I'm not impressed with any violations of specs. ...unless
    they're verified to be actually with the specs. I'll have a look though,
    a coupla cables would be cheaper than a case. (drat! I was looking at a
    better casee ;-)
    >
    > best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy)
    > included with a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)


    I'm not really impressed with any "round" cables that I've seen. SATA
    cables are round, but they're still a PITA. If the SuSE/Tyan/SI3114
    drivers worked I'd be a happy camper. I'd take the pATA drive outa this
    thing and put it back in the old beast where it belongs. Until that
    happens (not counting chickens), I'm doing little more than heating the
    room with the SATA drive.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 6, 2004
    #17
  18. keith

    keith Guest

    On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 18:38:05 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    > On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

    >
    >>> There *are* a lot of crappy keyboards around and the Memorex one
    >>> surprised me at how good it feels for $20.... $15. for the beige one.

    >>
    >>The black ones don't feel as good, for $15? ;-)

    >
    > Sorry - they are basically the same keyboard. The dull chrome finish with
    > black keys costs $5. extra.


    No sorry (see: smiley). ;-))

    >>> Especially in the office, newer laptops, like T4xs, come with no PS/2
    >>> connector at all... unless you get a dock. IOW the interface is still
    >>> there but not the connector - damned stupid but.... I also like to have
    >>> the possibility of two interfaces, if only for potential
    >>> troubleshooting, and serial is dead now.

    >>
    >>No PS/2 mouse? The ThinkPads we have have the PS/2 keyboard and mouse
    >>connector in one (an unused pin is used for the keyboard data). Of course
    >>I generally use a dock or port-replicator if I'm using external widgets.

    >
    > The T40s I got have no PS/2 connector at all - haven't looked to see if
    > it's been "restored" in T41s.


    ....another reason to tell 'em to "go to hell". Rumor has it that they're
    replacing 3YO ThinkPads next year. They'll replace my A21p over my
    retired body! ;-)

    >>>>>That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata
    >>>>>regulates the
    >>>>> speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S,
    >>>>> with a special 12V connector.
    >>>>
    >>>>The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses,
    >>>>no?
    >>>
    >>> Yes but the speed of the rear case fans (& P/S fan of course) is what
    >>> makes the big difference IME.

    >>
    >>Right, and a 120mm fan doesn't have to do the RPMs of an 80mm fan to move
    >>the same air.

    >
    > True but the variable speed fans mentioned below do make a big
    > difference... and from what I hear, pushing the system doesn't make any
    > noticeable increase in noise.


    Ok, but shouldn't the MB temperature sensors decide what RPM to use,
    rather than the PS? There's an argument either way, but the motherboard
    sensors are presumably closer to the widget that needs cooling.


    >>> In the office I have a couple of Antec
    >>> 660AMGs (no longer sold) which came with Truepower P/S, with the special
    >>> case fan connector to a single 80mm fan, and they are *much* quieter
    >>> than the SX635BIIs with Smartpower P/S. Antec still sells the 1080AMG
    >>> which has a Truepower P/S and two 80mm case fans so that config is
    >>> "supported" and quieter. FWIW I'm not thrilled with the AMG Series
    >>> paint coating - it's just paint which scratches easily, compared to the
    >>> "traditional" baked enamel of the SX Series. Dunno what's on the Sonata
    >>> but I'm seriously considering it for my upcoming home upgrade.

    >>
    >>I somehow got the CFO's approval to buy a Sonata (don't know if I'm going
    >>to execute though) to replace teh SX1040, which would then replace the
    >>Q500, which would likely move to the basement to be used as a file server.
    >>I have too much work to do around the house to go that far though. Soon
    >>the snow will fly though.

    >
    > I thought I recalled you wanted an Extended ATX case??... though I wasn't
    > sure if it was needed for the Tyan.


    Well, they're both Tyans. ;-) The Opteron system has the ATA drives and
    the cables don't reach (well, I can plug in the DVD drive or the DVD-R/W).
    The K6-III's CD drives are all SCSI and I have enough cable to reach to
    Mars. I have SCSI drives in the Opteron system too, but it appears that
    my AHA-3940 is toast. No one recognizes it. ...not a biggie, since newer
    and better ATA drives are so cheap.

    >>>>I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm not to happy
    >>>>with
    >>>>this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie).
    >>>
    >>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
    >>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.

    >>
    >>I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives
    >>still isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put
    >>the IDE connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor
    >>cousins to the FSB and memory. ;-)

    >
    > Ah, two drives off the one cable - that's always been a PITA with IDE
    > unless the drives were right next to each other.


    Two channnels, three drives. The pATA drive is in the 3-1/2 inch bay down
    below and of course the two DVD drives are above in the 5-1/4
    bays. Again, if the SATA drive worked I'd be a happy camper, but I have
    no power over software support (other than bitching where it might get
    noticed ;-). I ded send Tyan a "reminder" today.

    >>>>I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when

    it
    >>>>only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything
    >>>>with it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the
    >>>>power-cord out when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around
    >>>>the computer).
    >>>
    >>> It "failed me" once when I did a resize of C: from its Windows(98)
    >>> interface and the Exit to DOS batch file crapped out on me at about
    >>> 70% done - bloody mess... live & learn. BootitNG hasn't failed me yet
    >>> - you just cancel its (boot manager) install and run Partition
    >>> Management from the floppy. It also has a "ghost" utility to take a
    >>> compressed drive image to CD/DVD-R/RW which supports multiple CD/DVDs.
    >>> Definitely worth the $34.95.

    >>
    >>Maybe I'll take a look. What's the license like. PQM is pretty
    >>restrictive.

    >
    > Yep and that's always been my bleat with PQM - at one time the wanted
    > ~$900. just to be able to do a repartition of a Win2K Server.


    My boss paid $750ish for an unlimited licence for 3.0, umm *moons* ago. I
    was using it every day to set up test systems, so it wasn't absurd.
    AFAIK, we still have a corporate license for 7.x, but that's for business
    use only.

    > It did a lot more of course but of no interest to me. BootitNG is a download and
    > try it - I don't see any restrictions.... yet.


    Free download/trial? URL?

    BTW, you wouldn't know anythign about USB sticks and Win98, would you? A
    friend wants to repartition his THinkPad, but I'm not going there unless
    he takes his business accounts off there first. A USB stik would be a
    perfect answer for him. I loaned him mine to try, but apparently Win98
    didn't like the taste.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 6, 2004
    #18
  19. keith

    keith Guest

    On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:15:50 +0000, Never anonymous Bud wrote:

    > Trying to steal the thunder from Arnold, willbill <> on Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:02:14 -0500 spoke:
    >
    >>just do NOT put more than 512MB of memory
    >>on 9x or you WILL be very sorry!!

    >
    > Most people are fully capable of adding
    > the 2 simple lines to the win.ini file
    > that completely eliminate the problem
    > that more than 512 megs of ram causes with 98.


    Sure, I knew that:

    Just say *no*
    to Win9anything

    Unfortunately... ;-)

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Oct 6, 2004
    #19
  20. On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <> wrote:

    >I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
    >isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
    >connectors closer to the drives?


    is there any reason why if the mountain doesn't come to Mohammed,
    Mohammed cannot go to the mountain instead? Or is your casing so huge
    that even moving the drives closer won't help? :ppPpPp
    --
    L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
    If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
    Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
    If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
    But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
     
    The little lost angel, Oct 6, 2004
    #20
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