Building my own PC -- hardware advice needed

J

John Blaustein

Hi,

I am going to build my own PC -- first time I've done this. My main use of
the PC that requires power and speed is Photoshop CS. I will not do any
gaming or anything else that requires 3D graphics.

Having had two PCs with ASUS motherboards that worked very well, I will
stick with ASUS.

Here's what I'm planning:

Intel P4 3.0 Ghz CPU
Matrox G450 graphic card (perfect for Photoshop)
2 -- Western Digital WD1200JB EIDE drives (I have these already)
1 -- Plextor CD/DVD burner (I have this already)
Floppy drive
Faxmodem
LAN and Audio built into MB
USB and Firewire ports
Antec case w/350w power supply

My questions concern choice of motherboard and RAM.

The motherboards I'm considering are:

ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $169 (at newegg.com)
ASUS P4C800 Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $163
ASUS P4P800-E Deluxe -- 865PE chipset -- $116

The specs of these three MBs seem almost identical, so I'm wondering if
anyone has experience with these boards who could give me a reason to select
one versus another. I'm not clear on what I'd get with the $169 board that
the $116 board wouldn't give me. In other words, is the extra money worth
spending? (I don't need WiFi which the P4P800-E Deluxe has included.) I am
not clear about the differences between the 875C and 865PE chipsets, and
what those differences, if any, will mean to me as the end user. Also, I
can't tell the difference between the P4C800-E Deluxe and the P4C800 Deluxe.

RAM:
I will buy PC3200 RAM, 1GB or 2GB of RAM -- all of the MBs above will hold 4
DIMMS. Checking Kingston RAM prices on newegg.com, there are several
choices of 1GB (2x512) packages, ranging from ValueRAM at $194 to HyperX at
$282. I know I need to buy matched pairs of DIMMS. I'm not clear on the
difference between the ValueRAM and the HyperX, other than the price. Both
have very similar specs. I want good, fast, stable RAM, but I don't want to
spend any more than I need to. Any help or recommendations?? (I used
Kingston as my example, but Crucial and Corsair have the same range. These
three brands have been recommended to me.)

Thanks for any help, recommendations and comments.

John
 
J

John Blaustein

Thanks, Fred. Looks like I'm on the right track.,

Which brand/model RAM do you use?

John
 
T

Tim

Hi,

The major difference between P4C800 and P4P800 is:
C has ECC RAM capability and uses Intel 875P chipset with integrated gigabit
lan (CSA) on chip.
P does not so costs less.

If you want server class reliability - 24 x 7, then consider ECC Ram. IF you
don't then save the dosh.

The P4P asus is quite comparable to the P4C in that Asus has managed to
stretch out the performance (PAT).

Seldom do people need or will they notice the difference between the two, so
you may as well save some dosh and use it elsewhere.

If you can get away with the kingston RAM then that is worth the effort too
since it is lower cost. If you are not going to overclock or want to stretch
the last few percent of performance out of the motherboard, then the more
expensive ram is just that - more expensive. If you can & if you are going
to get 2GB then get it in one go from one retailer that will guarantee it
will work in the motherboard - this could save you a lot of pain otherwise.
Remember, 10% performance difference is not noticeable. For all the
differences you might get 3 - 4% without overclocking (IE tighter memory
timings).

HTH
- Tim
 
P

Paul

Hi,

The major difference between P4C800 and P4P800 is:
C has ECC RAM capability and uses Intel 875P chipset with integrated gigabit
lan (CSA) on chip.
P does not so costs less.

If you want server class reliability - 24 x 7, then consider ECC Ram. IF you
don't then save the dosh.

The P4P asus is quite comparable to the P4C in that Asus has managed to
stretch out the performance (PAT).

Seldom do people need or will they notice the difference between the two, so
you may as well save some dosh and use it elsewhere.

If you can get away with the kingston RAM then that is worth the effort too
since it is lower cost. If you are not going to overclock or want to stretch
the last few percent of performance out of the motherboard, then the more
expensive ram is just that - more expensive. If you can & if you are going
to get 2GB then get it in one go from one retailer that will guarantee it
will work in the motherboard - this could save you a lot of pain otherwise.
Remember, 10% performance difference is not noticeable. For all the
differences you might get 3 - 4% without overclocking (IE tighter memory
timings).

HTH
- Tim
Click to expand...
ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $169 (at newegg.com)
ASUS P4C800 Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $163
ASUS P4P800-E Deluxe -- 865PE chipset -- $116

The P4C800-E Lan chip is on a private bus. If you are building a
server, then this board can potentially give faster I/O, as the
disks and the Lan are on different busses. That doesn't sound
important to you right now.

In terms of chipset differences, the 875 and 865 are the same
die, as far as I know. The chips are sorted at the fab, and the
ones with a faster memory path become 875, and the next bin is
865PE. Below that is a bin for something like 848P. Very early
865PEs performed as well as the 875, but Intel now has the binning
going quite well, so there is one outstanding issue with the 865PE.

The 875 has official support for PAT, which is a shortening of
the memory access path, under synchronous conditions. The motherboard
manufacturers figured out a way to trigger PAT behavior for the
865PE, which reduces the differences between the boards. For more
info, visit the forums of Abxzone.com and search for "ctiaw", a
utility that claims to be able to read the status of this feature,
while in Windows. For Photoshop, PAT might give you an increase
in memory performance, especially if you have CAS2 memory.

ftp://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/applnots/25273001.pdf (pg.6)

One issue mentioned on Abxzone, is video artifacts at high overclock,
in 1:1 FSB:MEM mode on the P4P800. For example, if you boost the
FSB clock from 200MHz to 250MHz, and plan on using PC4000 memory
running at DDR500 to match the FSB, then the AGP card on the P4P800
might see some effects on the screen that shouldn't be there.
Searching for P4P800 and artifacts on Abxzone, will dig up a thread
that polled the users as to what percentage of users have the problem.

This isn't likely to affect you, due to your wish to have 2GB of
memory. Four sticks of double sided 512MB DIMMs can manage about
DDR440 (a 10% overclock at 1:1), so if you were to buy (4) PC4000
memories, they could not be run at their full speed potential.
Since the memory bus speed has to be reduced for that much memory
to work error free, you are more likely to be operating the motherboard
in the region where there aren't any AGP artifacts, so this issue
won't affect your choice of motherboard.

Your normal operating mode will be (4) sticks of PC3200 and
running the processor at stock bus speed (FSB800). If you overclock
the FSB from 800 to 1000 (25% overclock), then setting the memory
clock to the "DDR333" setting, puts the actual memory speed
at a 5:4 ratio with the FSB, so it actually runs at DDR400 and
is exactly in spec again. So, anywhere between 0% to 25%
overclock is possible on either board without issues, using the
5:4 divider for FSB:MEM caused by selecting "DDR333" in the BIOS.

Running memory faster than PC3200, with four sticks and a 1:1
FSB:MEM clock ratio, will give faster memory bandwidth performance,
but once you get to a certain level, you would be better off buying
one of the P4C800 boards. It is hard to say whether four sticks
of double sided memory can be driven fast enough to trigger the
P4P800 artifact bug. If you are not an overclocker, just buy
the cheapest one that has the peripheral interfaces you want.

On the memory front, there was an article on Tomshardware.com,
comparing CAS2, CAS2.5, and CAS3 memories at PC3200 or higher
rates. Winrar is one of the few applications that benefitted from
a lower CAS memory. This article will help define the benefit
you gain from spending the extra money on low CAS memory. A
professional Photoshop user wouldn't hesitate to buy something
like this, as time is money. But you could also spend the money
on a faster disk subsystem, if you find your designs are so large,
that storing them to disk is taking a measurable time. A couple
of SATA Raptors in RAID stripe off the ICH5R Southbridge, would
make a wonderful scratch disk.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040119/index-09.html#application_benchmarks

HTH,
Paul
 
J

John Blaustein

Paul, Tim and Fred2,

Thanks to all for such thorough responses to my post. You've taught me a
lot, and now I think I can make a somewhat educated decision.

I spoke to a guy at ASUS sales and he said to use non-ECC memory. He also
said they recommend Kingston, Crucial, Samsung and Corsair RAM.

I don't plan to overclock.

John
 
P

Phil

Are you planing to buy the P4 3.0C (northwood core) or the new P4 3.0E
(prescott core)? The ASUS P4C800 does not support the new prescott chips.
The P4P800 (865PE chipset) will support either.

I would recommend any flavor of the P4P800, depending on your needs, along
with the P4 3.0C. I currently have that same setup and it's rock solid. The
new P4 prescotts run a lot hotter (I've read reports of 50C idle temps...
yikes) than the northwoods, for marginally better performance.

As for mem, I use Corsair Value Select and have never had any probs.

Good luck with the new rig.

-phil
 
Q

QZ

Phil said:
The new P4 prescotts run a lot hotter (I've read reports of 50C idle temps...
yikes) than the northwoods, for marginally better performance.
Click to expand...

From what I have read, the Prescott P4 has marginally worse performance, in
the vast majority of applications. But since the Prescott P4 runs much
hotter, the Northwood P4 is the better choice, regardless of applications
used, IMO.
 
P

Phil

Agreed. However, the prescott does out-perform the northwood equivalent in
*certain* benchmarks, and it lends itself much more to overclocking. That
being said, I'd still go northwood in a heartbeat.

-phil
 
J

John Blaustein

Phil...

I appreciate the recommendation. I was planning on the 3.0C. I am now
leaning towards the P4P800-E Deluxe along with the 3.0C. On a Photoshop
forum, someone suggested getting the 2.8 CPU -- I guess the performance
difference between 2.8 and 3.0 is negligible, but the cost savings is
measurable. I'll check it out.

I'll look at the Corsair Value Select memory. Thanks!

John
 
J

John Blaustein

Ken,

As I recall, the ASUS sales guy said those two MoBo's don't support ECC
memory.

John
 
K

Ken

L

Lamont

John Blaustein said:
Hi,

I am going to build my own PC -- first time I've done this. My main use of
the PC that requires power and speed is Photoshop CS. I will not do any
gaming or anything else that requires 3D graphics.

Having had two PCs with ASUS motherboards that worked very well, I will
stick with ASUS.

Here's what I'm planning:

Intel P4 3.0 Ghz CPU
Matrox G450 graphic card (perfect for Photoshop)
2 -- Western Digital WD1200JB EIDE drives (I have these already)
1 -- Plextor CD/DVD burner (I have this already)
Floppy drive
Faxmodem
LAN and Audio built into MB
USB and Firewire ports
Antec case w/350w power supply

My questions concern choice of motherboard and RAM.

The motherboards I'm considering are:

ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $169 (at newegg.com)
ASUS P4C800 Deluxe -- 875C chipset -- $163
ASUS P4P800-E Deluxe -- 865PE chipset -- $116

The specs of these three MBs seem almost identical, so I'm wondering if
anyone has experience with these boards who could give me a reason to select
one versus another. I'm not clear on what I'd get with the $169 board that
the $116 board wouldn't give me. In other words, is the extra money worth
spending? (I don't need WiFi which the P4P800-E Deluxe has included.) I am
not clear about the differences between the 875C and 865PE chipsets, and
what those differences, if any, will mean to me as the end user. Also, I
can't tell the difference between the P4C800-E Deluxe and the P4C800 Deluxe.

RAM:
I will buy PC3200 RAM, 1GB or 2GB of RAM -- all of the MBs above will hold 4
DIMMS. Checking Kingston RAM prices on newegg.com, there are several
choices of 1GB (2x512) packages, ranging from ValueRAM at $194 to HyperX at
$282. I know I need to buy matched pairs of DIMMS. I'm not clear on the
difference between the ValueRAM and the HyperX, other than the price. Both
have very similar specs. I want good, fast, stable RAM, but I don't want to
spend any more than I need to. Any help or recommendations?? (I used
Kingston as my example, but Crucial and Corsair have the same range. These
three brands have been recommended to me.)

Thanks for any help, recommendations and comments.

John
Click to expand...

John,

Make it easy on yourself and pick up one of the Dell Poweredge 400SC
"servers" with the free p4 upgrade for $349. Toss in some RAM and
your parts on hand and you will have a good machine and probally save
some cash.
 
J

John Blaustein

Lamont,

OK... I'll take a look at the Dell site. Thanks for the tip. I must say,
however, that I've been looking forward to the "do-it-yourself" PC for a
while, so I may just stick to my plan even if it costs a few buck more.
I've had fun researching all the components and trying to learn as much as I
can about chipsets and motherboards, types of RAM, RAID, etc.

John
 
D

David Rance

OK... I'll take a look at the Dell site. Thanks for the tip. I must say,
however, that I've been looking forward to the "do-it-yourself" PC for a
while, so I may just stick to my plan even if it costs a few buck more.
I've had fun researching all the components and trying to learn as much as I
can about chipsets and motherboards, types of RAM, RAID, etc.
Click to expand...

I think you're right. One learns a *lot* more from putting things
together oneself.

David

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: (e-mail address removed) | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
 
J

John Blaustein

Hey guys...

Am I correct that I can use both an EIDE and an SATA drive with the
motherboards we've been discussing here -- P4P800-E Deluxe and P4C800-E
Deluxe? I'm now thinking I will get an SATA drive for my C: drive and use
one of my existing EIDE drives as D:. In other words, can one combine drive
types, or do they all have to be either EIDE or SATA?

Also... what is the issue with hard drives over 137GB? Will Windows XP
recognize a 160GB or 200GB drive, or will I have to partition a drive that
size into partitions each of which are less than 137GB?

As before... thanks for your advice and help.

John
 
P

Paul

Yup, you can use SATA and IDE in a P4P800
John. I use a sata as a 3rd master hdd here (D) and a 80 GB IDE partitioned,
as a master primary hdd as C, on a P4P800 non deluxe.

No prob at all. Just dont setup RAID in the
BIOS, if you only use 1 SATA. The P4P800 (well this
one has 3 masters. (2 IDE, master/primary, and the 2
SATA slots (which dont use jumpers, BUT have
a master and primary as well). I know nothing about
the P4C800, BUT I would say you can use BOTH IDE
and SATA on that too. It shouldn't matter what brand/model of mobo it is. If
a mobo has BOTH IDE
and SATA, BOTH can be used. You should be able
to install XP, on a SATA if you do a clean install.

It'll format then install XP on it.
 

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