"BIOS problem" solved

G

Godzilla

You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It
wild be a blueshift going downhill.

Or is it the other way around?

It's always a money-shift in Switzerland.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It
wild be a blueshift going downhill.

Or is it the other way around?

"it _would_ be a blueshift"

Dumb spell checker won't read my mind...
 
R

Rod Speed

Brian Gregory said:
Rod Speed wrote
I'm sure SATA does have terminators,

But not impedance matching terminators in the sense he is talking about.
it's just that they're built in to the devices at the ends of the cable,
and there are no devices connected anywhere in the middle of the cable.

Not in the sense of impedance matching he is talking about.

SATA data cables are too short for that approach to be needed.
My understanding is that PATA does too

No it does not, and they arent coax either.
but that they're not terminated very precisely,

Neither is SATA.
so that whether you have one drive or two it still works "well enough".

They don’t do impedance matching
in the sense he is talking about.

And when you have just the motherboard on
one end and a drive on the middle connector,
and nothing on the end connector, that end
connector isnt even terminated at all.
 
R

Rod Speed

So are you saying reflections off a kinked cable will be too small to
matter

Whether he is saying that or not, that is true.
or that the cable is so short that reflections don't matter?

Whether he is saying that or not, that is true.
It almost sounds as if you're saying, the more ludicrous thing - that the
cable doesn't have a characteristic impedance.

He wasn’t saying that.
 
P

Paul

Gene said:
To tell the truth, I don't think any of the things you've mentioned or
linked to are a problem for standard lampcord at 60Hz (though it was
called 60 cycles back then).

The code words here, suggest lines over 240km long might be
modeled as transmission lines.

http://eee.guc.edu.eg/Courses/Elect...s/Lectures/Modeling of Transmission Lines.pdf

And the article here, suggests 775 miles as a good length at
which to change electrical equivalent model.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/5.html

"For a 60 Hz AC power system, power lines would have to
exceed 775 miles in length before the effects of
propagation time became significant."

And for various reasons, we don't build extremely long single
hops for power transmission. So maybe switching modeling
schemes, isn't a big issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_current

*******

At the frequency of interest (60Hz), the lamp cord is "electrically
short", so a lumped model is sufficient to describe the behavior.

If the electrical connection between two SATA devices was
short enough, you might not need any special treatment
of the signals. That distance would likely be a fraction
of an inch, and so the distinction isn't an important one.
For all practical SATA connection instances, you need transmission
lines of appropriate design. (Copper tracks on a PCB can be
used as transmission lines. Known as stripline or microstrip.)

Paul
 
P

Paul

Brian said:
I'm sure SATA does have terminators, it's just that they're built in to
the devices at the ends of the cable, and there are no devices connected
anywhere in the middle of the cable.

My understanding is that PATA does too but that they're not terminated
very precisely, so that whether you have one drive or two it still works
"well enough".

The IDE ribbon cable bus is source terminated (series damped).

This is a Microsoft Word doc.

See section D.2.2.4 "Source-terminated bus" on page 198.

http://t13.org/Documents/UploadedDo...oiec24739-2-mds-vPtyOverby_vPty080511 GSR.DOC

Paul
 
R

Rod Speed

Paul said:
The code words here, suggest lines over 240km long might be
modeled as transmission lines.

http://eee.guc.edu.eg/Courses/Elect...s/Lectures/Modeling of Transmission Lines.pdf

And the article here, suggests 775 miles as a good length at
which to change electrical equivalent model.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/5.html

"For a 60 Hz AC power system, power lines would have to
exceed 775 miles in length before the effects of
propagation time became significant."

And for various reasons, we don't build extremely long single
hops for power transmission. So maybe switching modeling
schemes, isn't a big issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_current

*******

At the frequency of interest (60Hz), the lamp cord is "electrically
short", so a lumped model is sufficient to describe the behavior.
If the electrical connection between two SATA devices was short enough,
you might not need any special treatment of the signals. That distance
would likely be a fraction of an inch,

No it is not with the effect of a kink.
and so the distinction isn't an important one.

There is a reason for the limit to the length of SATA data cables.
For all practical SATA connection instances, you need transmission
lines of appropriate design. (Copper tracks on a PCB can be
used as transmission lines. Known as stripline or microstrip.)

That is a separate matter entirely to the effect of a kink.
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Gene E. Bloch said:
You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It
wild be a blueshift going downhill.

Or is it the other way around?
Doesn't it depend whether you're going with the earth's rotation or
against it?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

# 10^-12 boos = 1 picoboo # 2*10^3 mockingbirds = 2 kilo mockingbird
# 10^21 piccolos = 1 gigolo # 10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone
# 10**9 questions = 1 gigawhat
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Brian said:
PLEASE EXPLAIN.
He's probably claiming that those instructions are to do with damage
rather than impedance changing.

(Had he suggested that they might be _more_ to do with damage than
impedance changing, he might have had something.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

# 10^-12 boos = 1 picoboo # 2*10^3 mockingbirds = 2 kilo mockingbird
# 10^21 piccolos = 1 gigolo # 10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone
# 10**9 questions = 1 gigawhat
 
R

Rod Speed

J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
He's probably claiming that those instructions are to do with damage
rather than impedance changing.

Corse they are, because a radius of 25mm won't
have any significant effect on the impedance.
(Had he suggested that they might be _more_ to do with damage than
impedance changing, he might have had something.)

I have everything anyway.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

The code words here, suggest lines over 240km long might be
modeled as transmission lines.

http://eee.guc.edu.eg/Courses/Elect...s/Lectures/Modeling of Transmission Lines.pdf

And the article here, suggests 775 miles as a good length at
which to change electrical equivalent model.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/5.html

"For a 60 Hz AC power system, power lines would have to
exceed 775 miles in length before the effects of
propagation time became significant."

And for various reasons, we don't build extremely long single
hops for power transmission. So maybe switching modeling
schemes, isn't a big issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_current

*******

At the frequency of interest (60Hz), the lamp cord is "electrically
short", so a lumped model is sufficient to describe the behavior.

If the electrical connection between two SATA devices was
short enough, you might not need any special treatment
of the signals. That distance would likely be a fraction
of an inch, and so the distinction isn't an important one.
For all practical SATA connection instances, you need transmission
lines of appropriate design. (Copper tracks on a PCB can be
used as transmission lines. Known as stripline or microstrip.)

Paul

OK, then there might be a problem with the old suggestion for an
electric car that could go hundreds of miles on electricity, as long as
the extension cord was long enough.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Doesn't it depend whether you're going with the earth's rotation or
against it?

I guess you have to take both that and the gravitational redshift into
account. Thanks for reminding me - I had totally forgotten that.

As for red vs blue shift, the real problem is that I don't remember
which way it goes as you move up out of the depths of the gravitational
well.

We also need to account for the rotation direction of the water going
out of the drain, IIRC.

Or maybe we (OK, *I*) just need to get a life :)
 
P

Paul

Gene said:
OK, then there might be a problem with the old suggestion for an
electric car that could go hundreds of miles on electricity, as long as
the extension cord was long enough.

We'll just have to try it. Here, let me get my car
out of the garage. I have a 240km cord around here
somewhere...

I did actually build an electric car as a kid. It used
a washing machine motor. The pulleys weren't geared right,
so I couldn't use it regularly. But I did get it to go
about 20 or 30 feet around the side of the house. I can
see me driving that baby to work now. And having the
rubber belt snap halfway through the trip (because it
wasn't geared right). I would have needed another pair of
pulleys to get the ratio into the right range.

Paul
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

We'll just have to try it. Here, let me get my car
out of the garage. I have a 240km cord around here
somewhere...

Come on, Paul, one model of the Tesla has a 300 mi (almost 500 km) range
and it doesn't even need an extension cord :)

After yesterday's posts, I got to thinking about street cars and what I
call trackless trolleys. I realized that the overhead wires really
function just like an extension cord.

Kind of ruins the old joke :)

Trackless trolleys was the term when I was a kid in Philadelphia for
electric buses that were powered like streetcars (called trolley cars in
Phillie) by overhead wires. I mention that because all of those things
had different names in the different cities I grew up in.
I did actually build an electric car as a kid. It used
a washing machine motor. The pulleys weren't geared right,
so I couldn't use it regularly. But I did get it to go
about 20 or 30 feet around the side of the house. I can
see me driving that baby to work now. And having the
rubber belt snap halfway through the trip (because it
wasn't geared right). I would have needed another pair of
pulleys to get the ratio into the right range.

Paul

That's really impressive, even if it didn't go far. Creative.
 
J

John Doe

Gene E. Bloch said:
Come on, Paul, one model of the Tesla has a 300 mi (almost 500 km)
range and it doesn't even need an extension cord :)
Bullshit.









--

After yesterday's posts, I got to thinking about street cars and what I
call trackless trolleys. I realized that the overhead wires really
function just like an extension cord.

Kind of ruins the old joke :)

Trackless trolleys was the term when I was a kid in Philadelphia for
electric buses that were powered like streetcars (called trolley cars in
Phillie) by overhead wires. I mention that because all of those things
had different names in the different cities I grew up in.


That's really impressive, even if it didn't go far. Creative.

Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)


Path: eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal- september.org!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!
storethat.news.telefonica.de!feedme.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!fu-
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From: "Gene E. Bloch" <not-me other.invalid>
Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
Subject: Re: "BIOS problem" solved
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 11:22:53 -0800
Organization: Astrolabe
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <7yjuo767wzes$.dlg stumbler1907.invalid>
References: <m3b3p2$nhc$1 dont-email.me> <z8CdndWKROFZsMTJnZ2dnUU7-
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J

Jerry Peters

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Gene E. Bloch said:
Come on, Paul, one model of the Tesla has a 300 mi (almost 500 km) range
and it doesn't even need an extension cord :)

With the heater on? I seem to remember a less than enthusiastic review
of the Tesla, specifically the milage claims, where Tesla's response
was something like the reviewer didn't follow instructions -- poor guy
used the heater.
 
P

Paul

Char said:
My brother and I built an electric 'car' when we were kids, using modified
plans from Popular Mechanics. The drive motor was an electric starter from
an early 1960's Dodge and was powered by 4 used car batteries wired in
parallel. The concept was probably a lot better than our execution, but it
was fun while it lasted.

Sounds like you had a better junk yard than I did :)

Mine didn't involve nearly as much planning. It started
with a go-kart type project. And then I spotted the washing
machine motor... So there was no plan from day one to make
it electric. Just an opportunity presented itself in the
form of a surplus motor. We went through a fair number
of washers at our house, and at its peak, there were
three washers downstairs. Two wringer washers, and a washer
with spin dry.

Many people aren't familiar with those things. The
wringer was the kind that could crush your fingers.
The rollers up top, you put wet wash through them,
and it "squashes" out the water for you. Funny thing
is, we never had any finger crushing accidents at home.
When these would rust out, that's where your surplus
electric motor would come from.

http://atthemanse.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/wringer-washer.jpg

Paul
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

With the heater on? I seem to remember a less than enthusiastic review
of the Tesla, specifically the milage claims, where Tesla's response
was something like the reviewer didn't follow instructions -- poor guy
used the heater.

That's cool...
 

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