MSG+ is not spyware, nor an adware bundler

On the MSG+ forums
(http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
MSG+.

I agree on this one - it seems pretty pointless to identify uninstalled
features as spyware - it would be like norton saying...

You have a virus... only if you click 'install virus' on this upcoming
application.

- Mark R


"Anonymous" <msdisc1.10.pdedecker@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:12c301c4f626$5bdb10d0$a301280a@phx.gbl...
> On the MSG+ forums
> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
> MSG+.

Anonymous wrote:
> On the MSG+ forums
> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
> MSG+.

Maybe the question that should be asked is WHY is the MessengerPlus
sponsored version bundled with the well known adware variant Lop ?
Understand that it is optional, but does that garner faith with the
typical User who doesn't read the EULA closely enough ? Maybe if the
EULA explained the consequences of installing the sponsored version in
more detail then it would not be considered adware.

If you lie down with fleas ...

Steve Wechsler (akaMowGreen)
MVP Windows Server
AumHa VSOP

> "Steve Wechsler [MVP]" <mowgreen@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23B0jLLj9EHA.1560@CPMSFTNGSA04.privatenews.microsoft.com...
>
> If you lie down with fleas ...


.... you get Dogs?


--
AZC
MVP

The MSG+ installer makes it blindingly obvious as in great big bold text
about installing, or not installing the sponsor. Its by far the clearest I
have seen and credit to them for making it optional, and stressing its
optional.

- Mark R

"Steve Wechsler [MVP]" <mowgreen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23B0jLLj9EHA.1560@CPMSFTNGSA04.privatenews.microsoft.com...
> Anonymous wrote:
>> On the MSG+ forums
>> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
>> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
>> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
>> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
>> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
>> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
>> MSG+.
>
> Maybe the question that should be asked is WHY is the MessengerPlus
> sponsored version bundled with the well known adware variant Lop ?
> Understand that it is optional, but does that garner faith with the
> typical User who doesn't read the EULA closely enough ? Maybe if the EULA
> explained the consequences of installing the sponsored version in more
> detail then it would not be considered adware.
>
> If you lie down with fleas ...
>
> Steve Wechsler (akaMowGreen)
> MVP Windows Server
> AumHa VSOP

During the installation of Messenger Plus! there are TWO
screens that inform the user about the sponsor and what it
does.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mail2jae/screen1.png
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mail2jae/screen2.png

At the first screen the "next" button will be disabled for
a few seconds so the user can't skip this message and will
notice it. It clearly syays the sponsor (adware) is
optional. And tells you that it WILL add a searchbar to
your Internet Explorer. Also it tells you how to remove the
entire sponsor (adware) in case you do not like it after
you have installed it. Finally it tells the user to read
the license agreement for the full details.

After that you can press next and you will see screen 2.
This screen shows the search toolbar that the sponsor will
install and should give the user a visual warning. Also you
HAVE to choose if you want to install Messenger Plus! with
or without the sponsor. The Sponsor agreement itself
clearly states the this sponsor is a product from C2Media.
The EULA contains all the information like that sthe
sponsor product name (lop.com) and what it does (Provide
you with additional content, promotional offers,
advertisements and other web browser enhachements bases, in
part, on keywords in the websites you visit).

The sponsor (adware) isn't installed by default, the user
will always have to choose if he/she want's the sponsor
(adware) or not. What could be done to make this even more
clear? I know Patchou (creator of Messenger Plus!) made a
lot of changes to his installer to avoid accidental sponsor
(adware) installs by his users.



Another thins is that Messenger Plus! is also detected by
Microsoft AntiSpyware Beta1 even AFTER the user installed
Messenger Plus! WITHOUT THE SPONSOR and deleted the
installer from his/her system. This means the Microsoft's
new product detects spyware in Messenger Plus! even when
the spyware isn't on the user's system at all. It would
make more sense to target the sponsor (C2media's package)
itself and give a low threat warning at the Messenger Plus!
INSTALLER, not Plus! without the sponsor.

- Johan Brune (j.brune@xs4all.nl)


>-----Original Message-----
>Anonymous wrote:
>> On the MSG+ forums
>>
(http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
>> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
>> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
>> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
>> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
>> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
>> MSG+.
>
>Maybe the question that should be asked is WHY is the
MessengerPlus
>sponsored version bundled with the well known adware
variant Lop ?
>Understand that it is optional, but does that garner faith
with the
>typical User who doesn't read the EULA closely enough ?
Maybe if the
>EULA explained the consequences of installing the
sponsored version in
>more detail then it would not be considered adware.
>
>If you lie down with fleas ...
>
>Steve Wechsler (akaMowGreen)
> MVP Windows Server
> AumHa VSOP
>.
>

There's no need at all to discuss this in these forums.

The developer of Messenger Plus! can simply use the form linked to at the
end of this KB article:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/892340 Microsoft Windows AntiSpyware (Beta)
identifies a program as a spyware threat (Listing criteria and Dispute
process)

to read the criteria for inclusing and ask for a change. Lots of folks here
will have opinions one way or another but this is between the developer and
Microsoft, and posting long threads here will have little effect on the
situation.

"Anonymous" <msdisc1.10.pdedecker@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:12c301c4f626$5bdb10d0$a301280a@phx.gbl...
> On the MSG+ forums
> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.p...58372#pid358372),
> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor. There's
> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware because
> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor, not
> MSG+.

How is it that there's no need to discuss this here when
this is a newsgroup to report bugs and false positives
(SIGNATURES category anyone?) with this program?

Definitely agreed on this. This software needlessly scare
users who chose not to install the completely optional
and pretty obvious adware (see setup screenshots above in
the thread) that comes with Messenger Plus! and leads
them to believe that it has installed spyware even when
they chose not to.

More information about Msgplus' sponsor:
http://www.msgplus.net/getthefacts.php

>-----Original Message-----
>There's no need at all to discuss this in these forums.
>
>The developer of Messenger Plus! can simply use the form
linked to at the
>end of this KB article:
>
>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/892340 Microsoft Windows
AntiSpyware (Beta)
>identifies a program as a spyware threat (Listing
criteria and Dispute
>process)
>
>to read the criteria for inclusing and ask for a
change. Lots of folks here
>will have opinions one way or another but this is
between the developer and
>Microsoft, and posting long threads here will have
little effect on the
>situation.
>
>"Anonymous" <msdisc1.10.pdedecker@spamgourmet.com> wrote
in message
>news:12c301c4f626$5bdb10d0$a301280a@phx.gbl...
>> On the MSG+ forums
>> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.php?
tid=36528&pid=358372#pid358372),
>> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
>> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor.
There's
>> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware
because
>> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
>> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor,
not
>> MSG+.
>
>
>.
>

There's a large difference between a false positive and something that some
one considers misclassified.

For instance, I had the AOL toolbar detected as the GonnaSearch toolbar.
I've also had gator.com cookies detected when cookie detection is not
currently enabled complicated by the fact that Gator is no longer Gator but
rather Claria. This are false positives and a mislabel.

Contrast that to specific detection of a product, let's say WhenU or even
MSG+, correctly by name, and that product is called out as a real nasty.
Product detection is correct, the classification is in dispute and that is
outside the scope of this newsgroup.

--
Walter Clayton
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.


"Guido" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0f2601c4f6ce$5b4aa150$a501280a@phx.gbl...
> How is it that there's no need to discuss this here when
> this is a newsgroup to report bugs and false positives
> (SIGNATURES category anyone?) with this program?
>
> Definitely agreed on this. This software needlessly scare
> users who chose not to install the completely optional
> and pretty obvious adware (see setup screenshots above in
> the thread) that comes with Messenger Plus! and leads
> them to believe that it has installed spyware even when
> they chose not to.
>
> More information about Msgplus' sponsor:
> http://www.msgplus.net/getthefacts.php
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>There's no need at all to discuss this in these forums.
>>
>>The developer of Messenger Plus! can simply use the form
> linked to at the
>>end of this KB article:
>>
>>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/892340 Microsoft Windows
> AntiSpyware (Beta)
>>identifies a program as a spyware threat (Listing
> criteria and Dispute
>>process)
>>
>>to read the criteria for inclusing and ask for a
> change. Lots of folks here
>>will have opinions one way or another but this is
> between the developer and
>>Microsoft, and posting long threads here will have
> little effect on the
>>situation.
>>
>>"Anonymous" <msdisc1.10.pdedecker@spamgourmet.com> wrote
> in message
>>news:12c301c4f626$5bdb10d0$a301280a@phx.gbl...
>>> On the MSG+ forums
>>> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.php?
> tid=36528&pid=358372#pid358372),
>>> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
>>> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor.
> There's
>>> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware
> because
>>> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as an
>>> adware bundler. The program should detect the sponsor,
> not
>>> MSG+.
>>
>>
>>.
>>

False positives do not exclusively refer to names
incorrectly detected. But if every file (even simple .INI
language files) of a completely spyware-free instalation
of a program is detected as "spyware" (see below), that
is, undoubtedly and by definition, a false positive:
something that is classified as something that it is not
(albeit in a half and half way (see below)).

While furtherly in the threat description (after the user
scrolling, which in most cases won't happen due to lots
of real adware or spyware found in most average users
systems) it's a bit clearer that the installation is
optional and that the user could have chosen not to
install the spyware -therefore why even list it, by the
way-, this application always describes EVERY ITEM as
spyware, saying, e.g., "15 spyware found", when it could
say "15 potentially dangerous items found".

I'm not talking only about Messenger Plus! here, but
about the contradictions that AntiSpyware and its scan
results contain, which are fated to confuse users (simple
people who download freeware software which is clear
about the option to install adware AND even commercial
users who pay for products only to be later driven into
the thought that the author could have been spying
themselves).

Probably many denomination improvements will help this
situation. I'm gladly not a developer so I'm not directly
affected by this, but I'm annoyed at the response this
week-old beta has caused within simple frightened users
that logically believe what a product from a well known
company says about such a delicate subject (spyware).

I'm not blaming anyone, just suggesting improvements
here. And it's not Microsoft's fault, but it is
Microsoft's responsibility to solve this confusing issues
before releasing this GIANT derivate officially.

That said, the download is already on microsoft.com's
homepage, so it's already a bit late.

Thanks a lot.

>-----Original Message-----
>There's a large difference between a false positive and
something that some
>one considers misclassified.
>
>For instance, I had the AOL toolbar detected as the
GonnaSearch toolbar.
>I've also had gator.com cookies detected when cookie
detection is not
>currently enabled complicated by the fact that Gator is
no longer Gator but
>rather Claria. This are false positives and a mislabel.
>
>Contrast that to specific detection of a product, let's
say WhenU or even
>MSG+, correctly by name, and that product is called out
as a real nasty.
>Product detection is correct, the classification is in
dispute and that is
>outside the scope of this newsgroup.
>
>--
>Walter Clayton
>Any technology distinguishable from magic is
insufficiently advanced.
>
>
>"Guido" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message
>news:0f2601c4f6ce$5b4aa150$a501280a@phx.gbl...
>> How is it that there's no need to discuss this here
when
>> this is a newsgroup to report bugs and false positives
>> (SIGNATURES category anyone?) with this program?
>>
>> Definitely agreed on this. This software needlessly
scare
>> users who chose not to install the completely optional
>> and pretty obvious adware (see setup screenshots above
in
>> the thread) that comes with Messenger Plus! and leads
>> them to believe that it has installed spyware even when
>> they chose not to.
>>
>> More information about Msgplus' sponsor:
>> http://www.msgplus.net/getthefacts.php
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>There's no need at all to discuss this in these forums.
>>>
>>>The developer of Messenger Plus! can simply use the
form
>> linked to at the
>>>end of this KB article:
>>>
>>>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/892340 Microsoft
Windows
>> AntiSpyware (Beta)
>>>identifies a program as a spyware threat (Listing
>> criteria and Dispute
>>>process)
>>>
>>>to read the criteria for inclusing and ask for a
>> change. Lots of folks here
>>>will have opinions one way or another but this is
>> between the developer and
>>>Microsoft, and posting long threads here will have
>> little effect on the
>>>situation.
>>>
>>>"Anonymous" <msdisc1.10.pdedecker@spamgourmet.com>
wrote
>> in message
>>>news:12c301c4f626$5bdb10d0$a301280a@phx.gbl...
>>>> On the MSG+ forums
>>>> (http://www.msghelp.net/showthread.php?
>> tid=36528&pid=358372#pid358372),
>>>> they say the Messenger Plus! is detected as an adware
>>>> bundler. But it only installs an OPTIONAL sponsor.
>> There's
>>>> no reason to mark MSG+ (Messenger Plus!) as spyware
>> because
>>>> you can deny the sponsor and then it's still mark as
an
>>>> adware bundler. The program should detect the
sponsor,
>> not
>>>> MSG+.
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>
>.
>