I need to do a fair amount of comb-binding of documents that I print.
But I've found that most of the inexpensive laser printers that I've
looked at tend to curl the paper either significantly or a lot, so as
to make comb-binding a very inefficient and frustrating process.
(Slightly - sometime even imperceptibly - curled paper can just refuse
to sit cleanly under the punches of lower capacity comb binders,
leading to a lot of wastage with mis-punched pages). Note that
typically this doesn't happen with pages from a commercial
photocopier.

Just wondering whether anyone might have a recommendation for an
inexpensive laser printer (with duplex facility) that only puts a
minimal curl on the paper. (I guess it's too much to ask for one that
doesn't curl the paper at all).

Maybe because all inexpensive laser printers tend to have small
diameter drums this is the root cause of the problem, with standard
photocopiers having larger drums and hence inducing less curl? So on
this thinking I will be out of luck? Interestingly inkjets don't seem
to give the same problem presumably because there's no heat involved,
but automatic duplexing on inkjets tends to be an unacceptably slow
process because of the need for one side to dry before printing the
flip side.

Thanks for any comments.
JGD

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Dann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I need to do a fair amount of comb-binding of documents that I print.
> But I've found that most of the inexpensive laser printers that I've
> looked at tend to curl the paper either significantly or a lot,

You wouldn't believe how important the paper is to the laser printing
process.

Change your paper to a different type or brand. Keep looking until you
find one that works well with your printer.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Dann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Maybe because all inexpensive laser printers tend to have small
> diameter drums this is the root cause of the problem, with standard
> photocopiers having larger drums and hence inducing less curl?

Nope.

The curl is a factor of (a) the paper, and (b) the paper path. When you
heat paper through a fuser like that you evaporate moisture from it.
Just heating it will cause it to curl (you can try this by ironing a
piece of paper on an ironing board and watching it curl right up). Then
you tightly curl it around through the duplex path, and then heat it
again.

Some paper holds up better to that treatment than other.

Some printers have decurlers built in post-fuser. Not at your level,
though.

Many thanks for the prompt response. A couple of follow-up questions:

1. Beyond blind trial and error of hundreds of different paper types,
what could I look for in a paper specification that might make the
search for a low curl paper more efficient? I guess it's too much to
expect that a specification might explicitly say 'low-curl'? I don't
remember having seen any such legend on a paper pack but then maybe
I've never really looked that hard!

2. At what printer price point do you start to find decurlers
implemented. Are there any well-known PC compatible models that would
have a decurler, or are we talking about department-level or larger
network printers or photocopiers costing many thousands?

TIA
John Dann

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) says...
> Many thanks for the prompt response. A couple of follow-up questions:
>
> 1. Beyond blind trial and error of hundreds of different paper types,
> what could I look for in a paper specification that might make the
> search for a low curl paper more efficient? I guess it's too much to
> expect that a specification might explicitly say 'low-curl'? I don't
> remember having seen any such legend on a paper pack but then maybe
> I've never really looked that hard!
>
> 2. At what printer price point do you start to find decurlers
> implemented. Are there any well-known PC compatible models that would
> have a decurler, or are we talking about department-level or larger
> network printers or photocopiers costing many thousands?
>
> TIA
> John Dann
>
Due to the manufactering process most papers curl more to one side or
the other. Check the wraper. Xerox Business Multipurpose 1200 Paper has
little arrow and "print arrow side first". Office Depot paper
has no such clue, so try it both ways and pick the side with the least
curl to print first.

marv

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Dann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> 1. Beyond blind trial and error of hundreds of different paper types,
> what could I look for in a paper specification that might make the
> search for a low curl paper more efficient? I guess it's too much to
> expect that a specification might explicitly say 'low-curl'?

Yeah, pretty much. A beefier paper will stand up to things better;
that's a start.



> 2. At what printer price point do you start to find decurlers
> implemented.

Um, the only one I know of personally starts about about $60K. ;-) But
that doesn't mean there aren't office-type products out there that don't
have such a thing. I just don't pay any attention to them.

John Dann wrote:
>
> I need to do a fair amount of comb-binding of documents that I print.
> But I've found that most of the inexpensive laser printers that I've
> looked at tend to curl the paper either significantly or a lot, so as
> to make comb-binding a very inefficient and frustrating process.
> (Slightly - sometime even imperceptibly - curled paper can just refuse
> to sit cleanly under the punches of lower capacity comb binders,
> leading to a lot of wastage with mis-punched pages). Note that
> typically this doesn't happen with pages from a commercial
> photocopier.
>
> Just wondering whether anyone might have a recommendation for an
> inexpensive laser printer (with duplex facility) that only puts a
> minimal curl on the paper. (I guess it's too much to ask for one that
> doesn't curl the paper at all).
>
> Maybe because all inexpensive laser printers tend to have small
> diameter drums this is the root cause of the problem, with standard
> photocopiers having larger drums and hence inducing less curl? So on
> this thinking I will be out of luck? Interestingly inkjets don't seem
> to give the same problem presumably because there's no heat involved,
> but automatic duplexing on inkjets tends to be an unacceptably slow
> process because of the need for one side to dry before printing the
> flip side.
>
> Thanks for any comments.
> JGD

Like some others have already stated, paper curl is a function of the
moisture content of the paper as well as the temperature that the fuser
submits it to. While the moisture content of various brands and types
of paper might be predictable, it's probably more a function of the
environment where those papers happen to be at the moment. For example,
a sheet of Brand-X in in Alaska during winter could be expected to have
less moisture in it than the very same sheet of paper in Panama during
July. Paper absorbs moisture from the air when humidity increases,
loses moisture when humidity decreases.

Bottom line, you're more likely to conquer the curling problem by
keeping your paper dry than by trying all the brands of paper. Take a
hard look at how and where your paper is stored.

John Dann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> I need to do a fair amount of comb-binding of documents that I print.
> But I've found that most of the inexpensive laser printers that I've
> looked at tend to curl the paper either significantly or a lot, so as
> to make comb-binding a very inefficient and frustrating process.

A lot of lasers, even realtively cheap ones, have a hatch at the back
you can open so the paper comes out there. This is intended for stiff
paper or envelopes, gives a straighter paper path and should at least
reduce the curl.

You might also press the stack of paper immediately after printing for
a while under a large heavy object.

But I've never had a noticeable curling problem, specifically using
HPII, III, 4ML, 4, even when I've manually duplexed. These printers
are really cheap now. Maybe newer, higher ppm, printers are worse as
they need to use higher temperates/pressure?

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Alan
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>
>But I've never had a noticeable curling problem, specifically using
>HPII, III, 4ML, 4, even when I've manually duplexed. These printers
>are really cheap now. Maybe newer, higher ppm, printers are worse as
>they need to use higher temperates/pressure?

I had a bit of curling from IIp and IIIp but for anything that needed it
just shoving in thicker paper seemed to sort it out.

--
Timothy Lee http://www.wightproperty.com

John Dann wrote:

> I need to do a fair amount of comb-binding of documents that I print.
> But I've found that most of the inexpensive laser printers that I've
> looked at tend to curl the paper either significantly or a lot, so as
> to make comb-binding a very inefficient and frustrating process.
> (Slightly - sometime even imperceptibly - curled paper can just refuse
> to sit cleanly under the punches of lower capacity comb binders,
> leading to a lot of wastage with mis-punched pages). Note that
> typically this doesn't happen with pages from a commercial
> photocopier.
>
> Just wondering whether anyone might have a recommendation for an
> inexpensive laser printer (with duplex facility) that only puts a
> minimal curl on the paper. (I guess it's too much to ask for one that
> doesn't curl the paper at all).
>
> Maybe because all inexpensive laser printers tend to have small
> diameter drums this is the root cause of the problem, with standard
> photocopiers having larger drums and hence inducing less curl? So on
> this thinking I will be out of luck? Interestingly inkjets don't seem
> to give the same problem presumably because there's no heat involved,
> but automatic duplexing on inkjets tends to be an unacceptably slow
> process because of the need for one side to dry before printing the
> flip side.
>
> Thanks for any comments.
> JGD

In addition to the paper and humidity concerns, there may be some
influence from the printer geometry.

If the fuser roll has a small diameter, then there could well be some
curl induced into the paper from this small diameter hot roller. So,
then a factor *could* be the selection of a large diameter hot fuser
roller.... and that means older larger printers like the HP II and HP
III laserjets -- which are quite cheap now.

If the fuser temperature is really high, then the initial shock to the
first edge of the paper contacted by the printer will give a hard
"initial curl" for about the first turn of the fuser roller, giving an
extra curl to the top edge of the paper.

There may be no cure for this, and it isn't evidently easy to obtain the
fuser temperature information from the manufacturer.

My experience is that larger older printers are often better at a small
leading edge curl than newer printers.

The exception was an Epson 1500 which I once had. I lived near the
ocean, and it was fairly humid. The paper would curl hard at the leading
edge when paper went through. It was also true that the fuser roller
diameter was small.

If I took the printer to a repair depot, which was about 12 miles inland
where it was dry, compared to the beach location, the paper would curl
very little.

So, the comments on humidity should be taken realistically to heart.

Again, in that room, I found that an HP II would produce very little
curl in the same room with the same paper at the same time of day.

My search for the "magic paper" never resulted in a cure for the
problem. Low humidity was the best cure. So, you might even consider
renting a dehumidifier as a part of your search for a solution.

Jim

--
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