On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, John wrote:

>
> For listening to the occasional MP3, sports video clips (like ESPN) and such.
> The speakers on my LCD are pretty puny and not really loud enough to hear
> much. I don't have a sound card so standard mother board connections are all
> I have available. The mother board has VT1708 high-def with a 6-channel audio
> out I/O port.
>
> If anyone has had good results with something in the $40 or less range I
> would appreciate the info. A woofer would be nice but that may run more than
> $40, still if a bit more $$ is a good investment I'm open to suggestions.
>
Go to a garage sale, buy a stereo amplifier or receiver for ten bucks.

Then buy small speakers, or big ones, either at a garage sale or new.

You'll get more for the money than buying something labelled as "computer
speakers".

For a long time, I used a Delco digitally tuned car radio as the
amplifier, I added an external input jack, and fed the computer soundcard
into that. It gave me a radio, a good one, near the computer too. Then I
changed that to some stereo receiver I got for ten bucks at a garage sale,
those are plentiful since people seem to want smaller things nowadays.
For that matter, in the spring when the university students move out, it's
not uncomoon to find ministereos waiting for the garbage, though often
those don't have the needed auxiliary input jacks.

Initially, I used that Delco with a pair of generic metal cased speakers,
which I replaced with Minimus 7 tiny speakers bought at garage sales. I
could have bought descendents of those speakers at Radio shack, under a
differnt name, waiting till they were on sale, spending less than some of
those 'computer speakers" cost.

Or if you have the space, buy bigger speakers. The only good thing about
the tiny speakers is that they don't take up space, but if you have space,
then there's a wider range you can choose from, lots of bigger speakers at
garage sales.

When I got my first HDTV last year, I did't like the tiny built in
speakers, so I fed it into a boombox that I'd found waiting for the
garbage, not that much an improvement, but the speakers are larger, and
forward facing, and it's cheap, I can replace it later with another garage
sale stereo receiver and speakers.

Michael

Michael Black wrote:

> Go to a garage sale, buy a stereo amplifier or receiver for ten bucks.
> Then buy small speakers, or big ones, either at a garage sale or new.
> You'll get more for the money than buying something labelled as "computer
> speakers".

But you won't have the shielding needed to prevent EMF induction to the
speakers (you'll hear noise in the amp/speakers when next to the
computer) and/or you'll induce EMF effects into your nearby computer
gear (CRTs will waver, don't know about LCDs but suspect not, hear
feedback from CD drive playback). "Computer" speakers are shielded
speakers. Entertainment speakers aren't shielded. Also, the cabling to
computer speakers is shielded versus plain speakers where you're
basically using lamp cord (2 unshielded wires) which means more likely
to pickup noise. The power supply in [good] computer speakers will
filter out line noise from the A/C power source versus amps that
typically end up picking up hum or ground loop noise.

Remember that consumer-grade computers are class B devices (and often
even worse than that rating) so they emit EMF. Unshielded speakers will
pickup noise from everywhere: computer gear, line noise, nearby AM/FM
tower antennae, shortwave operator, and someone in your house using a
hair dryer. That's just about EMF induced into the speaker. Since the
speaker is a magnetic device, there's also the problem of magnetic
fields exiting the speaker enclosure. You could see if there are
magnetic shield kits for your unprotected speakers or make them
yourself, like with air duct caps (made of steel, not aluminum) but that
only covers the backside of the speaker. You would still have to
address the cable shielding. At that point, you might've as bought
"computer" speakers in the first place. Plus garage sale speakers and
amps tend to be poor quality as the kid that used them blasted them at
high volume all the time and the cone and flex membrane weather
(stiffens) with age so you lose the low end.

You might be lucky and be in an electrically quiet area but you might
not. Whether unshield speakers sound clean depends on where you are and
what's nearby and the quality of your line power and the amp to filter
out line noise.

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, VanguardLH wrote:

> Michael Black wrote:
>
>> Go to a garage sale, buy a stereo amplifier or receiver for ten bucks.
>> Then buy small speakers, or big ones, either at a garage sale or new.
>> You'll get more for the money than buying something labelled as "computer
>> speakers".
>
> But you won't have the shielding needed to prevent EMF induction to the
> speakers (you'll hear noise in the amp/speakers when next to the
> computer) and/or you'll induce EMF effects into your nearby computer
> gear (CRTs will waver, don't know about LCDs but suspect not, hear
> feedback from CD drive playback). "Computer" speakers are shielded
> speakers. Entertainment speakers aren't shielded. Also, the cabling to
> computer speakers is shielded versus plain speakers where you're
> basically using lamp cord (2 unshielded wires) which means more likely
> to pickup noise. The power supply in [good] computer speakers will
> filter out line noise from the A/C power source versus amps that
> typically end up picking up hum or ground loop noise.
>
Fine, then buy good speakers that are shielded. The later variants of the
Minimus 7 from Radio Shack were shielded.

But you can also simply place the speakers further apart, like you would
with a real stereo system. I should point out that one reason cheap
computer speakers work is because they are being used close to the ears,
which means they don't have to handle much power, and the close coupling
to the ears allows the cheap speakers to "sound fine".

Wiring to speakers won't pick up noise, that's a low impedance out of the
amplifier and it just won't pick anything up, plus, there's nothing to
amplify that noise. You might as well complain about the signal into the
amplifier, or for that matter into "computer speakers" since that is a
high impedance line that will pick up hum, and then amplify it.

I should point out that since the computer itself is so noisy, chances
are more that somewhere in the soundcard it will pick up noise, rather
than the cable to the amplifier (or in your case, the "computer speaker").
There's nothing magical about "computer speakers" to eliminate that
problem of noise pickup, if it is such a noisy environment.

The power supplies for cheap computer speakers are likely to be bad, lack
of filtering and lack of regulation, they may even not provide enough
current for the amplifiers in the speakers. The average stereo receiver
is well designed and can handle much more power than most amplified
speakers. For that matter, you can get a stereo receiver for ten bucks,
that cost a few hundred to when new, while many of the computer speakers
people talk of buying have cheap speakers and cheap amplifiers, and
cost a lot less new.

> Remember that consumer-grade computers are class B devices (and often
> even worse than that rating) so they emit EMF. Unshielded speakers will
> pickup noise from everywhere: computer gear, line noise, nearby AM/FM
> tower antennae, shortwave operator, and someone in your house using a
> hair dryer. That's just about EMF induced into the speaker. Since the
> speaker is a magnetic device, there's also the problem of magnetic
> fields exiting the speaker enclosure. You could see if there are
> magnetic shield kits for your unprotected speakers or make them
> yourself, like with air duct caps (made of steel, not aluminum) but that
> only covers the backside of the speaker. You would still have to
> address the cable shielding. At that point, you might've as bought
> "computer" speakers in the first place. Plus garage sale speakers and
> amps tend to be poor quality as the kid that used them blasted them at
> high volume all the time and the cone and flex membrane weather
> (stiffens) with age so you lose the low end.
>
You don't understand the point of "shielded speakers". A good speaker has
a powerful magnet in it, and that did affect CRT monitors, which use
magnetic deflection. "Shielded speakers" may use some sort of metal that
keeps the magnetism in, but usually they include an extra magent that
counters the magnetism in the speaker magnet. Which can be sort of an
illusion, because you may pick up some cheap "computer speaker" and
note that there's a heft to it, only to discover that's because there's an
extra magnet in there rather than a decent speaker in the first place.

Speakers are not shielded to protect them from outside radiation. Like I
said, a speaker is low impedance, it would have to have a very strong
signal to be a problem, and realistically, it's going to affect the
amplifier before the speaker directly. Note, computer speakers have very
short runs between the amplifier and the actual speaker since the
amplifier is in the speaker box, but that's a completely separate issue.


If you're worried about where the speakers have been, which is a fair
point, then buy new speakers. You'll still end up with a better system
for the money than buying all but the most expensive "computer speakers".
Or hey, if you buy that set of speakers for ten bucks, and they don't
sound good, you can buy another set at another garage sale for another ten
bucks, and still come out ahead.

> You might be lucky and be in an electrically quiet area but you might
> not. Whether unshield speakers sound clean depends on where you are and
> what's nearby and the quality of your line power and the amp to filter
> out line noise.
>
You don't have a clue.

Just about every person has a stereo system and does not have the problems
you are making this out to be.

But more important, there is no difference, other than magnetically
shielded speakers, between a home stereo and computer speakers. This is
the very point, clueless people think they need "computer speakers" so
they buy into it. They spend money on junk (tiny little speakers with a
"subwoofer" that can't handle real subwoofer frequencies, with a tiny
amplifier that is often claimed on the package to be much more powerful
than it can be) or they overpay on some premium computer speaker that does
fine, but they could just as easily bought a garage sale amplifier and
speakers. The only real advantage of "computer speakers" is their size,
and their built in amplifiers (if the amplifiers are actually any good).

There is no difference between a stereo receiver with stereo speakers and
"computer speakers" other than the latter are small and have the amplifier
built in, and the speakers are shielded so their magnets won't cause a
problem with CRT monitors. The rest is marketing.

Yes, you can get really good computer speakers, but they would be good
speakers anyway, it's not because they are labelled as such. And you'll
spend money on it. But there is nothing magical about them.

Michael

On Feb 26, 10:54 pm, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> I should point out that since the computer itself is so noisy, chances
> are more that somewhere in the soundcard it will pick up noise, rather
> than the cable to the amplifier (or in your case, the "computer speaker").
> There's nothing magical about "computer speakers" to eliminate that
> problem of noise pickup, if it is such a noisy environment.

Negatory.

Although the soundcard is A-D for presumably analog inputs (likewise D-
A), if then bypassing altogether such stages for straight S/PDIF on a
high bandwidth, D<>D laser optical signal carrier over 10Hz to 48KHz,
there's really no place for signal degradation on a straight digital
signal path.

Actually, I've both, optionally an analogue signal interpolation
provided by the soundboard for simultaneous S/PDIF output to a mixer
unit variously distributed between two amps and another discrete
signal processor (Behringer stuff, the mixer and signal processing.
Amps are both studio grade and prosumer.)

Speakers are effectively being bi-amped over 200 watts, although to
maximize the better of two sets, I'll possibly need to step over to
pro-stage territory with QVC or Crown units for 250watts RMS, say at
300 to 400watts.

The signal processor unit is actually more than just a S/PDIF
distribution carrier, as with the computer when running layered
programming modules attached to a digital media player for further
processing sound (somewhat technical in dealing with peak limitations,
compression, or stereo stage enhancement). However, both the
Behringer as a discrete processor and the program are very similar in
many regards. The program will actually hog down a single core P4 at
3.2GHz, dedicated to it, when set for its highest orchestral grade
settings.

It's simply, for the most, a clean P4 built computer. Nothing magical
about rudimentary assembly. That the soundcard I chose is magical,
was as much an afterthought as seeing both practical application and
their limitations. Of course digital source quality must be high
indeed to approach that level.

There's really no reason to assume even an budget Pentium4 computer,
built with due care, is anything less than capable of reproducing high
audio standards. Then again, a cost of my speakers or a 400watt stage
amp will run at multiples over what the computer cost to build. Used
parts, again roughly $50, as was soundcard, perhaps more, although I
managed to secure it severely discounted at $19.

Anyone care to recommend where a perfectly functioning JBL, Crown, or
QVC 400watt amp can be procured for under $200? Age of course is
commiserate to condition and price fluctuation.

Michael Black wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Michael Black wrote:
>>
>>> Go to a garage sale, buy a stereo amplifier or receiver for ten bucks.
>>> Then buy small speakers, or big ones, either at a garage sale or new.
>>> You'll get more for the money than buying something labelled as "computer
>>> speakers".
>>
>> But you won't have the shielding needed to prevent EMF induction to the
>> speakers (you'll hear noise in the amp/speakers when next to the
>> computer) and/or you'll induce EMF effects into your nearby computer
>> gear (CRTs will waver, don't know about LCDs but suspect not, hear
>> feedback from CD drive playback). "Computer" speakers are shielded
>> speakers. Entertainment speakers aren't shielded. Also, the cabling to
>> computer speakers is shielded versus plain speakers where you're
>> basically using lamp cord (2 unshielded wires) which means more likely
>> to pickup noise. The power supply in [good] computer speakers will
>> filter out line noise from the A/C power source versus amps that
>> typically end up picking up hum or ground loop noise.
>>
> Fine, then buy good speakers that are shielded. The later variants of the
> Minimus 7 from Radio Shack were shielded.

Yeah, I did like those when I had them (for use with my entertainment
center, not with my computer). Don't remember if it was the flex
membrane that deteriorated too quickly with age to reduce the lows or
one got blown out, but I replaced the first set, got a 2nd, but those
got replaced with much better speakers. I forget when Radio Shack
stopped selling those. I think the brand changed to RCA/Optimus but
they haven't carried them for a long time (maybe 10-20 years ago?).
They were a bit weak in the high range and had a resonance in the
mid-bass yet I still liked them although eventually I got much higher
fidelity speakers. They didn't exaggerate the bass (muddy it up like
many cheap speakers); however, they're small speakers you added a
subwoofer. They're okay for bedroom, office, or other small volumetric
setups but better fidelity speakers are needed for an entertainment
system. As I recall, you could get them for $20-$30 because they always
went on sale. Placement was critical for these speakers. They had to
be placed near a reflecting boundary to direct below 1000 Hz into the
listening area. They changed from acoustic suspension (that I liked
better) to a reflex design: when I replaced the first pair (that had
gentler frequency rolloff), I was disappointed with the 2nd set where
its bass port added more oomph to the 120-350 Hz range but at a loss
under 80 Hz plus the reflex port introduced a substantial phase shift
(after all, it's the backward push of the speaker that pushes the air
through the port). A buddy actually plugged the port because he like it
better that way. I even remember having the larger Minimus 77's (5" LF
speaker vs 4") but, as I recall, I was disappointed as they weren't any
better than the smaller Minimus 7's.

Wow, we're dating ourselves.

However, those used a cast aluminum case. They were not magnetically
shielded. Some even had a wood case. I don't think there was any
magnetic shielding until the brand changed to Optimus and only for the
"AV" shielded versions.

> But you can also simply place the speakers further apart, like you would
> with a real stereo system.

You're also sitting farther away from your entertainment center for
those separated speakers. Since these are to be used with a computer
and considering where most users place their monitors and speakers, the
overly wide spread of the speakers would result in loss of stereo effect
and especially loss in direction. In a 4-speaker setup, and put far
enough apart, you couldn't tell whether those footsteps in the game were
coming from in front or behind you. In a 2-speaker system and if the
speakers are too far apart, you might as well as go with monaural.

Plus I don't see how placing them farther apart helps with induced noise
into the speakers unless they are shielded. Your first reply wasn't
pointing the OP at getting shielded speakers and what I addressed.

> I should point out that one reason cheap
> computer speakers work is because they are being used close to the ears,
> which means they don't have to handle much power, and the close coupling
> to the ears allows the cheap speakers to "sound fine".

Same reason why headphones don't need much power but that doesn't
preclude them from fine audio reproduction. In fact, in a 2-speaker
only setup or cost restrictions, sometimes headphones are the better
option in a particular environ rather than put up with chintzy speakers.

I wasn't saying your scheme wasn't plausible but it could have some
gotchas that may incur extra expense. I know plenty of users that pipe
their audio outputs from their computers to their stereo system but
sometimes they have to correct some noise problems.