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.NET SUCKS --- READ FOLLOWING. MICROSOFT IS A SUCKY CO

 
 
Ian Evitable
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      14th Sep 2005
"Tyrant Mikey" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Having interviewed with Microsoft myself, I seriously doubt the
> authenticity of your claims here.


If you read his claims backwards i think he speaks the truth. First of all
he says Microsoft "did not come across [as] very smart people" and then he
says "They tried to pursue me". Sounds about right to me.

:=)



 
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=?Utf-8?B?VmFkaW0gSW5kcmlrb3Y=?=
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      14th Sep 2005
First of all, who told you .NET is a real-time systems development platform?

Second, your may try to use your own memory management algorithm (GC in .NET
does not meddle with very big allocated memory managament) and unsafe
pointers. I think it's not a big issue for a really smart guy.

Third, you need to know more about real-time system before talking in terms
of "sucks".
Real time systems need not only "cool programming languages", but also
real-time infrastructure: some kind of a RT-OS (there are RT extensions for
Windows 2000 from third parties), some RT communication protocols, and even
RT memory management. Because usual heap management libraries in most C++
compilers are just a toys, and can not be used when some QoS need to be
assured.


"(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:

> Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
> There is a large application that has communication with a real time
> system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
> The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
> Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
> throat.
>
> Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
> when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
> the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
>
> Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
> I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
> etc"
> My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
>
>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?VmFkaW0gSW5kcmlrb3Y=?=
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      14th Sep 2005
"... very big allocated memory block management" I mean

"Vadim Indrikov" wrote:

> First of all, who told you .NET is a real-time systems development platform?
>
> Second, your may try to use your own memory management algorithm (GC in .NET
> does not meddle with very big allocated memory managament) and unsafe
> pointers. I think it's not a big issue for a really smart guy.
>
> Third, you need to know more about real-time system before talking in terms
> of "sucks".
> Real time systems need not only "cool programming languages", but also
> real-time infrastructure: some kind of a RT-OS (there are RT extensions for
> Windows 2000 from third parties), some RT communication protocols, and even
> RT memory management. Because usual heap management libraries in most C++
> compilers are just a toys, and can not be used when some QoS need to be
> assured.
>
>
> "(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:
>
> > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
> > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
> > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
> > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
> > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
> > throat.
> >
> > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
> > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
> > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
> >
> > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
> > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
> > etc"
> > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
> >
> >

 
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=?Utf-8?B?ZGFyaXNvbGU=?=
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      14th Sep 2005


"Chris" wrote:

> Who would use an interpreted language for real time processing? Doesn't
> sound like someone knew what they were doing when they chose a language
> to meet their requirements.
>
> You shouldn't use .NET for this type of thing... you C or C++ or some
> other language that you control every aspect of the language.
>


BTW .NET languages are not interpreted. IL is like Java bytecode. When a
..NET app starts, the JIT compiler, translates the IL code into Win32 native
code and launch it.
 
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=?Utf-8?B?c2Z1Z2FyaW5v?=
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      14th Sep 2005
..NET is an exciting technology with great promise. I don't understand why you
would post such a obtuse message in this newsgroup. You obviously have an
agenda, so stick to it without interfering and degrading the interest of the
people who like the product. Post your whining on some Java or Linux board.

"(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:

> Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
> There is a large application that has communication with a real time
> system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
> The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
> Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
> throat.
>
> Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
> when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
> the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
>
> Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
> I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
> etc"
> My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
>
>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?S2V2aW4=?=
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Posts: n/a
 
      14th Sep 2005
Not only may .NET not be an appropriate development tool for your
application, the target OS may not be right for such real time service level
guarantees. Most pre-emptive OS's (Windows, Linux, AIX, HP-UX) do not
guarantee that an event will be delivered to an application within a given
time period. For that kind of service, you should look at Windows CE, RTLinux
or Qnx.

You condemn an entire technology stack that provides countless thousands of
valuable services with a blithe ".NET sucks" simply because you believe it
doesn't meet *your* specialized needs. This indicates that you may lack the
experience necessary to make such judgements, in which case you are not
qualified to make technology decisions for your client. I would urge you to
seek out a mentor to assist you with your efforts; your project may well be
at risk.

Further, I encourage you to adopt a less religious, more analytical attitude
toward making technology value judgements. There is an appropriate technology
for a given problem, and one size definitely does not fit all. Work to
develop the skills necessary to know what fits what; your customers and
ultimately your paycheck will thank you.

Regards and best of luck,

Kevin


"(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:

> Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
> There is a large application that has communication with a real time
> system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
> The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
> Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
> throat.
>
> Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
> when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
> the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
>
> Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
> I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
> etc"
> My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
>
>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?RG1pdHJ5IFNhem9ub3Y=?=
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Posts: n/a
 
      14th Sep 2005
"(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:
> Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
> There is a large application that has communication with a real time
> system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
> The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at


I developed real time stock trading applicaiton in C#. My applicaiton trades
642,000 stocks symbols in real time, with reaction to market event less than
1 millisecond. My applcation receiving 200 giga bytes / hour of reali time
data and generates hundreds of thousands orders to trade a day. All in C#.
I do not have probelms with Garbage Collectior because I'm trying to use
memory wisely. My app spends less than 2% in GC.

Therefore, you imaginary "realtime applicaiton with respond in no more than
one second" is piece of cake for .NET.

Assuming you can really code, not yell at people.
 
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=?Utf-8?B?aWFubQ==?=
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      14th Sep 2005
I wrote a couple of months ago a pretty complete ray tracer in C# 2.0,
including support for complex solid textures, CSG, antialiasing, focal blur,
etc, etc. I needed a complex application to be used as example in a C#
training course. Ray tracers are famous for being resource-intensive
applications. What I found, however, was that the performance of my ray
tracer was more than acceptable Even then, in some circumstances my prototype
works faster than paradigmatic "native" ray tracers, since I was able to do
some silly optimizations to the algorithms: for instance, while the ray
tracer used as reference always computes all three roots of a cubic equation,
mine only computes the first root, and this extremely simple enhancement
proves enough to trace fourth order surfaces (tori, e.g.) faster in the
typical case.

And regarding GC: some complex scenes get traced in a second or less, and in
that second, .NET is able to perform three or four collections... in an
Athlon XP 2200++, which isn't what I'd call "state-of-the-art".

Sucky system... or sucky programming?

Ian
 
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Lloyd Dupont
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      15th Sep 2005
Very interesting post ^_^

"ianm" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>I wrote a couple of months ago a pretty complete ray tracer in C# 2.0,
> including support for complex solid textures, CSG, antialiasing, focal
> blur,
> etc, etc. I needed a complex application to be used as example in a C#
> training course. Ray tracers are famous for being resource-intensive
> applications. What I found, however, was that the performance of my ray
> tracer was more than acceptable Even then, in some circumstances my
> prototype
> works faster than paradigmatic "native" ray tracers, since I was able to
> do
> some silly optimizations to the algorithms: for instance, while the ray
> tracer used as reference always computes all three roots of a cubic
> equation,
> mine only computes the first root, and this extremely simple enhancement
> proves enough to trace fourth order surfaces (tori, e.g.) faster in the
> typical case.
>
> And regarding GC: some complex scenes get traced in a second or less, and
> in
> that second, .NET is able to perform three or four collections... in an
> Athlon XP 2200++, which isn't what I'd call "state-of-the-art".
>
> Sucky system... or sucky programming?
>
> Ian



 
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Lloyd Dupont
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      15th Sep 2005
Very interesting post ^_^

"Dmitry Sazonov" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "(E-Mail Removed)" wrote:
>> Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
>> There is a large application that has communication with a real time
>> system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
>> The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at

>
> I developed real time stock trading applicaiton in C#. My applicaiton
> trades
> 642,000 stocks symbols in real time, with reaction to market event less
> than
> 1 millisecond. My applcation receiving 200 giga bytes / hour of reali time
> data and generates hundreds of thousands orders to trade a day. All in C#.
> I do not have probelms with Garbage Collectior because I'm trying to use
> memory wisely. My app spends less than 2% in GC.
>
> Therefore, you imaginary "realtime applicaiton with respond in no more
> than
> one second" is piece of cake for .NET.
>
> Assuming you can really code, not yell at people.



 
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