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MS System Backup = BIG JOKE

 
 
Raymond
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004
My recent experience in attempting to restore
a system hard-drive using a system backup made with
Win2k's backup software has been something of a nightmare.

Mind you I'm a programmer, so I finally figured out
workarounds, after 10 hours and several unsuccessful
attempts trying to restore system state from MS backup.
Though I still have one small problem with the dual
booting.

MS Backup may be fine for simple folders and files, but
if you are relying on MS Backup to restore system
state then I strongly advise you not to!!!

Here is a short summary of my experience:

I have a dual boot system with win98 & win2k,
several partitions (FAT,FAT32, NTFS) on 3
hard-drives. I had a hard-drive crash on the
drive containing the system and win2k boot partitions.

1) Created the same partition/file system structure on the
new drive, and reinstalled win2k in a different folder.

2) Tried many times, using various suggestions
and tips, to restore the system state and
couldn't. Each time I would solve one problem,
I would bang into anther one.

3) Thankfully I had made separate backups
of the win2k registry files (using copy/paste from
<windir>\repair\regback). That's what saved me!
I went into the recovery console and copied the files to
<windir>\system32\config. That fixed win2k, but
the win98 still would not work. It was getting stuck
trying to find the OS boot files. I guess because the boot
sector had changed.

4) In trying to fix win98:

i)Booted with win98 floppy, and ran SYS C:

ii) That fixed win98, but now win2k would
not boot, again because the boot sector had
changed.

iii) Back into the win2k recovery console
and ran FIXBOOT C:

5) Now my Win2k works but again my
Win98 does not.

So my problem now is how to fix this
booting to work in dual mode. Given
the above I can make it work with
Win98 or Win2k, but not both. If
I fix it with FIXBOOT, once the Boot.ini
loads, and I choose the Win98 option,
then I get an "Invalid System Disk" error.


Here's my Boot.ini

[boot loader]
timeout=4
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNTBAK
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNTBAK="Microsoft Windows 2000
Professional" /fastdetect
c:\="Win98"


The Bootsect.DOS is there too on C:\, as well as IO.SYS


thanks in advance









 
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I'm Dan
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004

"Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> My recent experience in attempting to restore a
> system hard-drive using a system backup made with
> Win2k's backup software has been something of a nightmare.
>
> Mind you I'm a programmer, so I finally figured out
> workarounds, after 10 hours and several unsuccessful
> attempts trying to restore system state from MS backup.
>
> MS Backup may be fine for simple folders and files, but
> if you are relying on MS Backup to restore system
> state then I strongly advise you not to!!!


You musta been programming mainframes, 'cause everyone knows MS backup has
been useless for backing up systems since at least Win95! That's what
guaranteed the success of DriveImage way back then, and all the subsequent
DriveImage followers since.


> I have a dual boot system with win98 & win2k,
> several partitions (FAT,FAT32, NTFS) on 3
> hard-drives. I had a hard-drive crash on the drive
> containing the system and win2k boot partitions.
>
> ...(snipped)...
>
> 4) In trying to fix win98:
>
> i)Booted with win98 floppy, and ran SYS C:
>
> ii) That fixed win98, but now win2k would
> not boot, again because the boot sector had
> changed.
>
> iii) Back into the win2k recovery console
> and ran FIXBOOT C:
>
> 5) Now my Win2k works but again my
> Win98 does not.
>
> So my problem now is how to fix this
> booting to work in dual mode. Given
> the above I can make it work with
> Win98 or Win2k, but not both. If
> I fix it with FIXBOOT, once the Boot.ini
> loads, and I choose the Win98 option,
> then I get an "Invalid System Disk" error.
> ...(snipped)...
> The Bootsect.DOS is there too on C:\, as
> well as IO.SYS


You're on the right track in focusing on the boot sector, but the secret is
in understanding how Microsoft's lame dualboot scheme operates. When 2K was
installed over the existing 98 system, the 98 boot sector was saved in a
file (bootsect.dos) and then replaced by a 2K boot sector. Thus, you're
supposed to have a 2K boot sector and a bootsect.dos with the saved contents
of the 98 boot sector. When you choose 98 from your boot menu, ntldr
resurrects the 98 boot sector from the bootsect.dos file, steps out of the
way, and lets 98 boot up just as though it had started from a 98 boot sector
in the first place.

You've rebuilt your system on a new HDD and your step 4iii makes sure you've
got a new, validated 2K boot sector, but you've done nothing to fix your 98
boot sector. Remember, your step 4i does not fix the 98 boot sector because
it's tucked away, dormant, in bootsect.dos. IOW, you're 98 boot option is
resurrecting a boot sector image that no longer matches the new partition
parameters. You need to regenerate a new bootsect.dos based on your new
HDD. Basically, you need to redo step 4i to get a valid 98 boot sector, use
it to generate a new bootsect.dos, then do 4iii again to put the 2K boot
sector back. You'll find details at http://thpc.info/dual/bootsectdos.html.

FWIW, you would have avoided these problems if Win2K had been installed in a
true dualboot in the first place instead of Microsoft's pseudo-dualboot that
tangles up the OS's. At this stage, that would require you to reinstall
your 2K, so no sense belaboring the point because things are (nearly)
working again. But if you ever decide to reinstall or rebuild anew, see my
www.goodells.net/multiboot for more about a proper dualboot using a
third-party boot manager.



 
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Raymond
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004
Much thanks, that worked!

I did it a bit differently though:

1) Booted 98 from floppy, renamed Bootsect.dos,
ran Sys C: ;
2) Rebooted 98 from floppy, ran Debug commands
to create new Bootsect.dos ;
3) Rebooted into Win2k recovery console and
ran Fixboot C: ;

Now dual-booting is restored!

I still can't believe Microsoft has pulled such
a stunt with their worthless System State backup.
This is actually the first time I've had to use it to
restore a system. Oh well, now I know that the
separate registry file backups I've been making
are absolutely critical, and thanks for the nifty
info for recovering dual-booting.


"I'm Dan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > My recent experience in attempting to restore a
> > system hard-drive using a system backup made with
> > Win2k's backup software has been something of a nightmare.
> >
> > Mind you I'm a programmer, so I finally figured out
> > workarounds, after 10 hours and several unsuccessful
> > attempts trying to restore system state from MS backup.
> >
> > MS Backup may be fine for simple folders and files, but
> > if you are relying on MS Backup to restore system
> > state then I strongly advise you not to!!!

>
> You musta been programming mainframes, 'cause everyone knows MS backup has
> been useless for backing up systems since at least Win95! That's what
> guaranteed the success of DriveImage way back then, and all the subsequent
> DriveImage followers since.
>
>
> > I have a dual boot system with win98 & win2k,
> > several partitions (FAT,FAT32, NTFS) on 3
> > hard-drives. I had a hard-drive crash on the drive
> > containing the system and win2k boot partitions.
> >
> > ...(snipped)...
> >
> > 4) In trying to fix win98:
> >
> > i)Booted with win98 floppy, and ran SYS C:
> >
> > ii) That fixed win98, but now win2k would
> > not boot, again because the boot sector had
> > changed.
> >
> > iii) Back into the win2k recovery console
> > and ran FIXBOOT C:
> >
> > 5) Now my Win2k works but again my
> > Win98 does not.
> >
> > So my problem now is how to fix this
> > booting to work in dual mode. Given
> > the above I can make it work with
> > Win98 or Win2k, but not both. If
> > I fix it with FIXBOOT, once the Boot.ini
> > loads, and I choose the Win98 option,
> > then I get an "Invalid System Disk" error.
> > ...(snipped)...
> > The Bootsect.DOS is there too on C:\, as
> > well as IO.SYS

>
> You're on the right track in focusing on the boot sector, but the secret is
> in understanding how Microsoft's lame dualboot scheme operates. When 2K was
> installed over the existing 98 system, the 98 boot sector was saved in a
> file (bootsect.dos) and then replaced by a 2K boot sector. Thus, you're
> supposed to have a 2K boot sector and a bootsect.dos with the saved contents
> of the 98 boot sector. When you choose 98 from your boot menu, ntldr
> resurrects the 98 boot sector from the bootsect.dos file, steps out of the
> way, and lets 98 boot up just as though it had started from a 98 boot sector
> in the first place.
>
> You've rebuilt your system on a new HDD and your step 4iii makes sure you've
> got a new, validated 2K boot sector, but you've done nothing to fix your 98
> boot sector. Remember, your step 4i does not fix the 98 boot sector because
> it's tucked away, dormant, in bootsect.dos. IOW, you're 98 boot option is
> resurrecting a boot sector image that no longer matches the new partition
> parameters. You need to regenerate a new bootsect.dos based on your new
> HDD. Basically, you need to redo step 4i to get a valid 98 boot sector, use
> it to generate a new bootsect.dos, then do 4iii again to put the 2K boot
> sector back. You'll find details at http://thpc.info/dual/bootsectdos.html.
>
> FWIW, you would have avoided these problems if Win2K had been installed in a
> true dualboot in the first place instead of Microsoft's pseudo-dualboot that
> tangles up the OS's. At this stage, that would require you to reinstall
> your 2K, so no sense belaboring the point because things are (nearly)
> working again. But if you ever decide to reinstall or rebuild anew, see my
> www.goodells.net/multiboot for more about a proper dualboot using a
> third-party boot manager.
>
>
>



 
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nesredep egrob
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 04:18:21 GMT, "Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>My recent experience in attempting to restore
>a system hard-drive using a system backup made with
>Win2k's backup software has been something of a nightmare.
>
>Mind you I'm a programmer, so I finally figured out
>workarounds, after 10 hours and several unsuccessful
>attempts trying to restore system state from MS backup.
>Though I still have one small problem with the dual
>booting.
>
>MS Backup may be fine for simple folders and files, but
>if you are relying on MS Backup to restore system
>state then I strongly advise you not to!!!
>
>Here is a short summary of my experience:
>
>I have a dual boot system with win98 & win2k,
>several partitions (FAT,FAT32, NTFS) on 3
>hard-drives. I had a hard-drive crash on the
>drive containing the system and win2k boot partitions.
>
>1) Created the same partition/file system structure on the
>new drive, and reinstalled win2k in a different folder.
>
>2) Tried many times, using various suggestions
>and tips, to restore the system state and
>couldn't. Each time I would solve one problem,
>I would bang into anther one.
>
>3) Thankfully I had made separate backups
>of the win2k registry files (using copy/paste from
><windir>\repair\regback). That's what saved me!
>I went into the recovery console and copied the files to
><windir>\system32\config. That fixed win2k, but
>the win98 still would not work. It was getting stuck
>trying to find the OS boot files. I guess because the boot
>sector had changed.
>
>4) In trying to fix win98:
>
>i)Booted with win98 floppy, and ran SYS C:
>
>ii) That fixed win98, but now win2k would
>not boot, again because the boot sector had
>changed.
>
>iii) Back into the win2k recovery console
>and ran FIXBOOT C:
>
>5) Now my Win2k works but again my
>Win98 does not.
>
>So my problem now is how to fix this
>booting to work in dual mode. Given
>the above I can make it work with
>Win98 or Win2k, but not both. If
>I fix it with FIXBOOT, once the Boot.ini
>loads, and I choose the Win98 option,
>then I get an "Invalid System Disk" error.
>
>
>Here's my Boot.ini
>
>[boot loader]
>timeout=4
>default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNTBAK
>[operating systems]
>multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNTBAK="Microsoft Windows 2000
>Professional" /fastdetect
>c:\="Win98"
>
>
>The Bootsect.DOS is there too on C:\, as well as IO.SYS
>
>
>thanks in advance
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

For the life of me I do not see what the reason is for the dual mode -
if it were Linux, well maybe then I have been guilty, otherwise I
think it potty to put it in the most polite mode.

B.Pedersen Latitude -31,48.21 Longitude115,47.40 Time=GMT+8.00
If you are curious look here http://www.mapquest.com/maps/latlong.adp
 
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Raymond
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004

"nesredep egrob" <Long. -31,48.21 Lat. 115,47.40> wrote in message > For the
life of me I do not see what the reason is for the dual mode -
> if it were Linux, well maybe then I have been guilty, otherwise I
> think it potty to put it in the most polite mode.
>
> B.Pedersen Latitude -31,48.21 Longitude115,47.40 Time=GMT+8.00
> If you are curious look here http://www.mapquest.com/maps/latlong.adp


If the OSs are not too far apart, then I believe it's
very useful. OTOH, if the OSs are very different,
then there will most likely exist problems with the
hardware/driver support, in which case I believe it's
best to run them on separate systems and link
them with a KVM switch. That's what I've done for DOS
and Win95. Though 98SE was released just a year or so
before 2k, so my hardware is generally very inter-compatible
on that system.

Anyway, I don't believe this problem was due to my
dual boot setup. I couldn't even restore the Win2k
system state without using the separate backups
of the registry files.



 
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Mike
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004
I'm a big fan of Partition Magic w/ it's very good boot manager.
Very easy to setup and maintain multiple boot systems (up to four) on the
same HDD.

Mike

"Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%fEwc.13519$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "nesredep egrob" <Long. -31,48.21 Lat. 115,47.40> wrote in message > For

the
> life of me I do not see what the reason is for the dual mode -
> > if it were Linux, well maybe then I have been guilty, otherwise I
> > think it potty to put it in the most polite mode.
> >
> > B.Pedersen Latitude -31,48.21 Longitude115,47.40 Time=GMT+8.00
> > If you are curious look here http://www.mapquest.com/maps/latlong.adp

>
> If the OSs are not too far apart, then I believe it's
> very useful. OTOH, if the OSs are very different,
> then there will most likely exist problems with the
> hardware/driver support, in which case I believe it's
> best to run them on separate systems and link
> them with a KVM switch. That's what I've done for DOS
> and Win95. Though 98SE was released just a year or so
> before 2k, so my hardware is generally very inter-compatible
> on that system.
>
> Anyway, I don't believe this problem was due to my
> dual boot setup. I couldn't even restore the Win2k
> system state without using the separate backups
> of the registry files.
>
>
>



 
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I'm Dan
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      6th Jun 2004

"Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Much thanks, that worked!
>
> I did it a bit differently though:
>
> 1) Booted 98 from floppy, renamed Bootsect.dos,
> ran Sys C: ;
> 2) Rebooted 98 from floppy, ran Debug commands
> to create new Bootsect.dos ;
> 3) Rebooted into Win2k recovery console and
> ran Fixboot C: ;
>
> Now dual-booting is restored!
>
> I still can't believe Microsoft has pulled such
> a stunt with their worthless System State backup.
> This is actually the first time I've had to use it to
> restore a system. Oh well, now I know that the
> separate registry file backups I've been making
> are absolutely critical, and thanks for the nifty
> info for recovering dual-booting.


You're welcome.

For system backups you should really take a look at the partition imaging
solutions (BootIt-NG, Ghost, DriveImage, TrueImage, et al). BootIt-NG
(www.bootitng.com) is the most versatile, the most bulletproof, and also
happens to be the least expensive. It's interface is less intuitive than
the others, but that's because it was designed by a programmer and the
interface is laid out like a programmer thinks ... so you should have no
trouble with it. <g>

An side benefit of imaging is that it enables you to easily clone an OS
partition. As a programmer, you might find it convenient to replicate your
2K partition, with one as your stable OS, another to test new software
(before it's committed to your stable OS), and perhaps a third 2K to use as
a sandbox for program development. If you trash the second or third one, no
problem, just delete and recreate from a backup base image and you're back
up and running in 10 or 15 minutes, all without compromising your stable 2K.
(Note: a prerequisite for this kind of setup is that your 2K must be
reinstalled as a self-standing OS, not entangled with your 98 partition as
it is now.)

I even dualboot my kids' computers. They each have a 'trusted' bootup,
firewalled and connected to network drives and printers on the home LAN. Or
they can boot into a separate stripped-down 'untrusted' system where they
can do their kazaa and music downloading, etc, with trusted partition hidden
and no connections to home LAN other than internet access. We ocassionally
wipe the untrusted partition and restore from a base image ... back to a
clean, virus-free partition in about 10 minutes, and without touching the
trusted system.



 
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Enkidu
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      7th Jun 2004
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:39:23 GMT, "Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Anyway, I don't believe this problem was due to my
>dual boot setup. I couldn't even restore the Win2k
>system state without using the separate backups
>of the registry files.
>

Then you did something wrong. It almost always goes without a hitch.

Cheers,

Cliff
 
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Raymond
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      7th Jun 2004
Yup, I've actually used imaging before to do just
that, swapping OS images for various testing, just
didn't get around to doing it with my main system.

I've used Ghost before too, and liked it. I did some
research and I think I'll go for Ghost 2002, heard
some bad things about the 2003 version. 2002
should be even cheaper than Terabytes'.


"I'm Dan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > Much thanks, that worked!
> >
> > I did it a bit differently though:
> >
> > 1) Booted 98 from floppy, renamed Bootsect.dos,
> > ran Sys C: ;
> > 2) Rebooted 98 from floppy, ran Debug commands
> > to create new Bootsect.dos ;
> > 3) Rebooted into Win2k recovery console and
> > ran Fixboot C: ;
> >
> > Now dual-booting is restored!
> >
> > I still can't believe Microsoft has pulled such
> > a stunt with their worthless System State backup.
> > This is actually the first time I've had to use it to
> > restore a system. Oh well, now I know that the
> > separate registry file backups I've been making
> > are absolutely critical, and thanks for the nifty
> > info for recovering dual-booting.

>
> You're welcome.
>
> For system backups you should really take a look at the partition imaging
> solutions (BootIt-NG, Ghost, DriveImage, TrueImage, et al). BootIt-NG
> (www.bootitng.com) is the most versatile, the most bulletproof, and also
> happens to be the least expensive. It's interface is less intuitive than
> the others, but that's because it was designed by a programmer and the
> interface is laid out like a programmer thinks ... so you should have no
> trouble with it. <g>
>
> An side benefit of imaging is that it enables you to easily clone an OS
> partition. As a programmer, you might find it convenient to replicate your
> 2K partition, with one as your stable OS, another to test new software
> (before it's committed to your stable OS), and perhaps a third 2K to use as
> a sandbox for program development. If you trash the second or third one, no
> problem, just delete and recreate from a backup base image and you're back
> up and running in 10 or 15 minutes, all without compromising your stable 2K.
> (Note: a prerequisite for this kind of setup is that your 2K must be
> reinstalled as a self-standing OS, not entangled with your 98 partition as
> it is now.)
>
> I even dualboot my kids' computers. They each have a 'trusted' bootup,
> firewalled and connected to network drives and printers on the home LAN. Or
> they can boot into a separate stripped-down 'untrusted' system where they
> can do their kazaa and music downloading, etc, with trusted partition hidden
> and no connections to home LAN other than internet access. We ocassionally
> wipe the untrusted partition and restore from a base image ... back to a
> clean, virus-free partition in about 10 minutes, and without touching the
> trusted system.
>
>
>



 
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Raymond
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      7th Jun 2004
Not really. I had done a normal
backup of the full system, including
system state, with default settings,
can't get more plain vanilla than that.

I tried various combinations of
system state restore, after a number
of different reformat/reinstalls. They all
failed for one reason or another.
I tried original location to same drive structure,
alternate location to a different structure, restoring
after updating all service paks and security updates,
from active directory restore boot.....
Nothing worked, until I manually
copied over the registry files, after
the last system state restore failure.
Each time after finishing the system
state restore, the OS would ask to
reboot to finish, and each time I would
come across a different major problem.
On my final try, I booted in active directory
restore mode, updated all service packs,
and security and software updates, before
restoring, then I rebooted and got an error that
the System registry file could not be found.
That's when I went to the recovery console
and manually copied my saved registry to
system32\config, which finally restored
win2k.

"Enkidu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:39:23 GMT, "Raymond" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >Anyway, I don't believe this problem was due to my
> >dual boot setup. I couldn't even restore the Win2k
> >system state without using the separate backups
> >of the registry files.
> >

> Then you did something wrong. It almost always goes without a hitch.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff



 
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