On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 17:03:38 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:

> keith wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:29:32 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips MyndPhlyp <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://www.liberator.net/articles/Va...nsibility.html
>>>
>>>Very nice, but I wouldn't consider debridement to be required
>>>for "minor burns". Especially not on the vulva (ouch!)
>>>
>>>IMHO, Wikipedia is a bit more authoratative:
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case
>>>
>>>It _is_ an interesting question of responsibility:
>>>
>>>1) coffee is customarily served at 150-160'F
>>>2) McD coffee was deliberately served at 180-190'F
>>> (presumably for competitive advantage -- staying warm longer
>>> or to use cheaper coffee beans)
>>
>>
>> Competative advantage? Perhaps competative pressure. A friend had a
>> Dunkin' Donuts franchise and we were talking about this issue when it hit
>> the presses. They were *required* by franchise agreement to keep their
>> coffee at 180F +/- 3F. The corporate inspectors would show up unnanounced
>> and measure the temperature. They were heavily fined if it was
>> out-of-spec. Contrary to the claims in this thread 180F is not unusual for
>> coffee.
>>
>
> There is no excuse for coffee that hot. It will be
> interesting to see what happens if one of your friend's
> customers needs a skin graft after spilling his coffee.
> "I vas chust following orders" is not an acceptable
> excuse for blatant stupidity so I would expect your
> friend to be personally liable.
>
>>
>>>3) who is to blame for the resulting burns?
>>
>>
>> The ass that put the cup in their lap. Dunno about you, but I'm smart
>> enough not to get even 150F water near my johnson!
>
> You've never had an accident ? Nobody has ever spilled
> their coffee on you or caused you to spill yours on
> yourself ?

Sure, but I don't *ASK* for it by putting a cup of hot water in my crotch
just *waiting* for the pain. Good grief, think man!
>
> And 150 or 160 degrees or is no big deal

You stick your dick in it! It's a big deal to me. I don't care if it's
150F or 180F, I'm not going to ask for such pain. Sure, I've spilled
coffee on myself, but I don't put the damned cup between my legs! Perhaps
you're that stupid, but I leaned hot water is *hot* when I was a wee
child.

> you scream and cuss and then
> you go home to change your clothes and the event is soon forgotten.

Certainly. I scream and curse *myself* for being so *stupid*. ...rather
like I do when I mash my thimb with a hammer. I don't run out ans sue
Stanleeey because they sold me a 20oz. hammer, when the "standard" hammer
is 16oz.

> *THAT* is what people expect when they spill their coffee. 180'
> coffee is an entirely different story.

YOu're worng. 180F coffee is perfectly normal. As I said above, Dunkin'
DOnuts *required* that their fhanchisees serve coffee at 180F +/- 3F at
that *same* time.

>>>The same question of responsibility arises in lots of cases, tire
>>>blowouts, vehicles catching fire, ...
>>
>>
>> One expects hot coffee.
>
> 150 to 160 degree is plenty hot for coffee yet safe if you spill it on
> yourself and that is what people expect. 180 degrees is simply stupid
> and dangerous and nobody expects that

You're simply wrong. 180F is a perfectly normal serving temperature for
coffee. Not that it matters much, you don't put 150F coffee in your
crotch either, I would suppose. I thought you were smarter than that
anyway.

>> One doesn't expect tire blowouts and
vehicles catching fire *THESE
>> DAYS*. There was a time where such was reasonable. There has *always*
>> been a time where hot water and private parts don't mix.
>>
>>
>>>Maybe people in the computer field accept strict "caveat emptor"
>>>because the major software supplier(s) produce buggy products.
>>
>>
>> That much is obvious. The proof is that wee-Willie Gates has a roof
>> over his head. ;-)
>>

You really need to re-think your blame-some/anyone-else-first socialistic
stance. Hot water is *hot*. Hammers impart much energy. One treats
both with respect. Putting coffee between one's legs and whacking one on
the forehead with a hammer are pretty much one and the same thing;
self-inflicted wounds.

"Ohhh, I hate it when that happens".

--
Keith

keith wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 17:03:38 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>
>
>>keith wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:29:32 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips MyndPhlyp <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.liberator.net/articles/Va...nsibility.html
>>>>
>>>>Very nice, but I wouldn't consider debridement to be required
>>>>for "minor burns". Especially not on the vulva (ouch!)
>>>>
>>>>IMHO, Wikipedia is a bit more authoratative:
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case
>>>>
>>>>It _is_ an interesting question of responsibility:
>>>>
>>>>1) coffee is customarily served at 150-160'F
>>>>2) McD coffee was deliberately served at 180-190'F
>>>> (presumably for competitive advantage -- staying warm longer
>>>> or to use cheaper coffee beans)
>>>
>>>
>>>Competative advantage? Perhaps competative pressure. A friend had a
>>>Dunkin' Donuts franchise and we were talking about this issue when it hit
>>>the presses. They were *required* by franchise agreement to keep their
>>>coffee at 180F +/- 3F. The corporate inspectors would show up unnanounced
>>>and measure the temperature. They were heavily fined if it was
>>>out-of-spec. Contrary to the claims in this thread 180F is not unusual for
>>>coffee.
>>>
>>
>>There is no excuse for coffee that hot. It will be
>>interesting to see what happens if one of your friend's
>>customers needs a skin graft after spilling his coffee.
>>"I vas chust following orders" is not an acceptable
>>excuse for blatant stupidity so I would expect your
>>friend to be personally liable.
>>
>>
>>>>3) who is to blame for the resulting burns?
>>>
>>>
>>>The ass that put the cup in their lap. Dunno about you, but I'm smart
>>>enough not to get even 150F water near my johnson!
>>
>>You've never had an accident ? Nobody has ever spilled
>>their coffee on you or caused you to spill yours on
>>yourself ?
>
>
> Sure, but I don't *ASK* for it by putting a cup of hot water in my crotch
> just *waiting* for the pain. Good grief, think man!

What the heck is this obsession with coffee and your crotch ?
Everybody else in this thread is talking about coffee but
you keep talking about your dick.

>
>>And 150 or 160 degrees or is no big deal
>
>
> You stick your dick in it! It's a big deal to me. I don't care if it's
> 150F or 180F, I'm not going to ask for such pain. Sure, I've spilled
> coffee on myself, but I don't put the damned cup between my legs! Perhaps
> you're that stupid, but I leaned hot water is *hot* when I was a wee
> child.
>

Ok. So I'm in line at the drive in window at Tim Horton's
and the idiot behind me bumps my car just as I'm receiving
a cup of hot coffee from the cashier. And since you are
so obsessed with dicks, lets assume that is where the coffee
lands. I go home to clean myself up.

Meanwhile, 2000 miles away in Redneckistan you get bumped
while in line at McDonald's - and since you are so obsessed
with your crotch let's assume that is where the coffee lands.
Call me from the emergency room and tell me again that you
think 180' coffee wasn't an incredibly stupid idea from the
PHBs at Rotten Ronald's. And stop picking at those blisters,
damn it.

>
>>you scream and cuss and then
>>you go home to change your clothes and the event is soon forgotten.
>
>
> Certainly. I scream and curse *myself* for being so *stupid*. ...rather
> like I do when I mash my thimb with a hammer. I don't run out ans sue
> Stanleeey because they sold me a 20oz. hammer, when the "standard" hammer
> is 16oz.
>
>
>>*THAT* is what people expect when they spill their coffee. 180'
>>coffee is an entirely different story.
>
>
> YOu're worng. 180F coffee is perfectly normal. As I said above, Dunkin'
> DOnuts *required* that their fhanchisees serve coffee at 180F +/- 3F at
> that *same* time.
>

So McD's and Dunkin - two out of umpteen chains - require
there coffee to be served at 180'F. Hardly such a huge
preponderance of vendors that you can call their idiotic
practices the norm.

I regularly have coffee at many places - including the
big chains (at least in Canada) like 7-11, Mac's, Starbuck's,
Robin's Donuts, Tim Horton's, Burger King, A&W, Dairy Queen,
Smitty's, Boston's, and so on - and *none* of them serve their
coffee at a temperature anywhere near as high as McDonald's does.


>>>>The same question of responsibility arises in lots of cases, tire
>>>>blowouts, vehicles catching fire, ...
>>>
>>>
>>>One expects hot coffee.
>>
>>150 to 160 degree is plenty hot for coffee yet safe if you spill it on
>>yourself and that is what people expect. 180 degrees is simply stupid
>>and dangerous and nobody expects that
>
>
> You're simply wrong. 180F is a perfectly normal serving temperature for
> coffee. Not that it matters much, you don't put 150F coffee in your
> crotch either, I would suppose. I thought you were smarter than that
> anyway.
>
>

So if someone joggles your elbow and you get third degree
burns from spilling 180'F coffee down your chest that is
perfectly OK because your crotch wasn't involved ?


>>>One doesn't expect tire blowouts and
>
> vehicles catching fire *THESE
>
>>>DAYS*. There was a time where such was reasonable. There has *always*
>>>been a time where hot water and private parts don't mix.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Maybe people in the computer field accept strict "caveat emptor"
>>>>because the major software supplier(s) produce buggy products.
>>>
>>>
>>>That much is obvious. The proof is that wee-Willie Gates has a roof
>>>over his head. ;-)
>>>
>
>
> You really need to re-think your blame-some/anyone-else-first socialistic
> stance. Hot water is *hot*. Hammers impart much energy. One treats
> both with respect. Putting coffee between one's legs and whacking one on
> the forehead with a hammer are pretty much one and the same thing;
> self-inflicted wounds.
>
> "Ohhh, I hate it when that happens".
>


--
Reply to (E-Mail Removed)
Do not remove anything.

keith wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 17:03:38 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>
>
>>keith wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:29:32 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips MyndPhlyp <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.liberator.net/articles/Va...nsibility.html
>>>>
>>>>Very nice, but I wouldn't consider debridement to be required
>>>>for "minor burns". Especially not on the vulva (ouch!)
>>>>
>>>>IMHO, Wikipedia is a bit more authoratative:
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case
>>>>
>>>>It _is_ an interesting question of responsibility:
>>>>
>>>>1) coffee is customarily served at 150-160'F
>>>>2) McD coffee was deliberately served at 180-190'F
>>>> (presumably for competitive advantage -- staying warm longer
>>>> or to use cheaper coffee beans)
>>>
>>>
>>>Competative advantage? Perhaps competative pressure. A friend had a
>>>Dunkin' Donuts franchise and we were talking about this issue when it hit
>>>the presses. They were *required* by franchise agreement to keep their
>>>coffee at 180F +/- 3F. The corporate inspectors would show up unnanounced
>>>and measure the temperature. They were heavily fined if it was
>>>out-of-spec. Contrary to the claims in this thread 180F is not unusual for
>>>coffee.
>>>
>>
>>There is no excuse for coffee that hot. It will be
>>interesting to see what happens if one of your friend's
>>customers needs a skin graft after spilling his coffee.
>>"I vas chust following orders" is not an acceptable
>>excuse for blatant stupidity so I would expect your
>>friend to be personally liable.
>>
>>
>>>>3) who is to blame for the resulting burns?
>>>
>>>
>>>The ass that put the cup in their lap. Dunno about you, but I'm smart
>>>enough not to get even 150F water near my johnson!
>>
>>You've never had an accident ? Nobody has ever spilled
>>their coffee on you or caused you to spill yours on
>>yourself ?
>
>
> Sure, but I don't *ASK* for it by putting a cup of hot water in my crotch
> just *waiting* for the pain. Good grief, think man!
>
>>And 150 or 160 degrees or is no big deal
>
>
> You stick your dick in it! It's a big deal to me. I don't care if it's
> 150F or 180F, I'm not going to ask for such pain. Sure, I've spilled
> coffee on myself, but I don't put the damned cup between my legs! Perhaps
> you're that stupid, but I leaned hot water is *hot* when I was a wee
> child.

Think about this : You've got your cup of superheated McD's coffee
in one hand and you are getting into your car. Just as you sit down
and you are carefully moving your superheated cup of coffee to a
place well away from your genitals some mother****er rear ends your
parked car and you end up with this unnecessarily hot cup of coffee
in your crotch anyways.

Sure you'd probably litigate against the careless driver, but if
you had any sense at all you'd litigate against the ****ers who
made coffee so hot that an incidient beyond your control boiled
your *******s.

Superficially that case did sound stupid, but when the details did
actually emerge it appears McDs were being practically homicidal.

Cheers,
Rupert

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Certainly. I scream and curse *myself* for being so
> *stupid*. ...rather like I do when I mash my thimb with
> a hammer. I don't run out ans sue Stanleeey because they
> sold me a 20oz. hammer, when the "standard" hammer is 16oz.

Ah, but when you bought that 20oz, there were almost certainly
16oz'ers present, and that 20oz may have even been called
"heravyweight" or "hefty" or "supersized".

I'd have no problem if McD (and Dunkin' apparently at that
time) were to say "We serve our coffee hotter than normal
so you can enjoy it longer" or some other such warning that
there was an unusual hazard.

It's _hidden_ hazards that I decry.

-- Robert

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 06:00:55 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:

> Ok. So I'm in line at the drive in window at Tim Horton's
> and the idiot behind me bumps my car just as I'm receiving
> a cup of hot coffee from the cashier. And since you are
> so obsessed with dicks, lets assume that is where the coffee
> lands. I go home to clean myself up.
>
> Meanwhile, 2000 miles away in Redneckistan you get bumped
> while in line at McDonald's - and since you are so obsessed
> with your crotch let's assume that is where the coffee lands.
> Call me from the emergency room and tell me again that you
> think 180' coffee wasn't an incredibly stupid idea from the
> PHBs at Rotten Ronald's. And stop picking at those blisters,
> damn it.
>
Well, since the coffee was used for something other than what it was
intended for it doesn't matter who sold it to you, as the person that
caused the acident would be liable for any damage. Not the person that
sold the coffee to you, the pubic water works for providing the water
since they know it can be used dangerously if heated, the maker of the cup
since they know it's made to hold a dangerous substance. Maybe the auto
companys since you were in their vehicles and they didn't warn you not to
drink hot coffee in the car. Now, just how ****ing stupid are you?

> So McD's and Dunkin - two out of umpteen chains - require there coffee
> to be served at 180'F. Hardly such a huge preponderance of vendors that
> you can call their idiotic practices the norm.
>

And I suppose you know what temps all the little coffee shops around the
US sell their coffee at? And on top of that, it doesn't matter IMO. Hot is
hot. Would you jump into a bathtub filled with 160F hot water> How about
130FF. The 160F would scold you. And the 130F would come close to it

> I regularly have coffee at many places - including the big chains (at
> least in Canada) like 7-11, Mac's, Starbuck's, Robin's Donuts, Tim
> Horton's, Burger King, A&W, Dairy Queen, Smitty's, Boston's, and so on -
> and *none* of them serve their coffee at a temperature anywhere near as
> high as McDonald's does.
>
Don't like it? You don't have to buy it. Seems simple enough to me.

> So if someone joggles your elbow and you get third degree burns from
> spilling 180'F coffee down your chest that is perfectly OK because your
> crotch wasn't involved ?
>
No, but you don't sue the person that sold you the coffee. You sue the
person that bumped you. If someone driving a Chevy hits your car and
causes damage, do you sue chevy for allowing this person to drive a car
it made. Rediculous, just like everything else you've said.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 06:00:55 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:
>
>
>>Ok. So I'm in line at the drive in window at Tim Horton's
>>and the idiot behind me bumps my car just as I'm receiving
>>a cup of hot coffee from the cashier. And since you are
>>so obsessed with dicks, lets assume that is where the coffee
>>lands. I go home to clean myself up.
>>
>>Meanwhile, 2000 miles away in Redneckistan you get bumped
>>while in line at McDonald's - and since you are so obsessed
>>with your crotch let's assume that is where the coffee lands.
>>Call me from the emergency room and tell me again that you
>>think 180' coffee wasn't an incredibly stupid idea from the
>>PHBs at Rotten Ronald's. And stop picking at those blisters,
>>damn it.
>>
>
> Well, since the coffee was used for something other than what it was
> intended for it doesn't matter who sold it to you, as the person that
> caused the acident would be liable for any damage. Not the person that
> sold the coffee to you, the pubic water works for providing the water
> since they know it can be used dangerously if heated, the maker of the cup
> since they know it's made to hold a dangerous substance. Maybe the auto
> companys since you were in their vehicles and they didn't warn you not to
> drink hot coffee in the car. Now, just how ****ing stupid are you?
>
>
>>So McD's and Dunkin - two out of umpteen chains - require there coffee
>>to be served at 180'F. Hardly such a huge preponderance of vendors that
>>you can call their idiotic practices the norm.
>>
>
>
> And I suppose you know what temps all the little coffee shops around the
> US sell their coffee at?

Nope, but I do remember that at the time of the first
McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit there was evidence filed
showing that at 181'F the McDonald's coffee was more than
20'F hotter than what was sold by anyone else in that city.

> And on top of that, it doesn't matter IMO. Hot is hot.

That's bullshit and you know it. The degree of
hotness makes a huge difference. Hotter coffee has
both more energy to transfer to the skin and a
higher thermal transfer rate.

Would you jump into a bathtub filled with 160F hot water> How about
> 130FF. The 160F would scold you. And the 130F would come close to it

160'F water can scald if the exposure is long enough.
A scolding would have to come from some other source.
With a typical coffee spill the exposure is NOT long
enough. At 180'F there is both a lot more energy in the
coffee and the thermal transfer rate -

The hot water out of my kitchen tap is 160'F. It
stings when I am rinsing dishes after washing them,
but it is easy to live with when you know it is only
for a second or two at a time.

I have been in a 53'C hot tub a few times - about 127'F.
However, I can't take that for more than a minute or two
unless the hot tub is outdoors on a nice cold -30'C night.
Not painful at all except when you periodically dunk your
head to get rid of the ice that builds up in your hair.
Quite exhilarating. People who are used to it - such as
the owners of said hot tub - can take it for twenty minutes.


>
>
>>I regularly have coffee at many places - including the big chains (at
>>least in Canada) like 7-11, Mac's, Starbuck's, Robin's Donuts, Tim
>>Horton's, Burger King, A&W, Dairy Queen, Smitty's, Boston's, and so on -
>>and *none* of them serve their coffee at a temperature anywhere near as
>>high as McDonald's does.
>>
>
> Don't like it? You don't have to buy it. Seems simple enough to me.

S'matter of fact I don't buy McDonald's coffee anymore -
not since what should have been a non-event ordinary
coffee spill put blisters on my hand that lasted two weeks.

>
>
>>So if someone joggles your elbow and you get third degree burns from
>>spilling 180'F coffee down your chest that is perfectly OK because your
>>crotch wasn't involved ?
>>
>
> No, but you don't sue the person that sold you the coffee. You sue the
> person that bumped you. If someone driving a Chevy hits your car and
> causes damage, do you sue chevy for allowing this person to drive a car
> it made. Rediculous, just like everything else you've said.
>

I didn't propose that anyone sue anyone else.
The only point I've been trying to make is that 180'F is
incredibly stupid for coffee. It exposes the customers -
and the servers, for that matter - to the risk of
unnecessarily severe burns when accidents happen as they
inevitably will. And nobody has posted anything yet that
suggests that there are any benefits to 180'F coffee that
come close to justifying the risks.


--
Reply to (E-Mail Removed)
Do not remove anything.

>
> I didn't propose that anyone sue anyone else.
> The only point I've been trying to make is that 180'F is
> incredibly stupid for coffee. It exposes the customers -
> and the servers, for that matter - to the risk of
> unnecessarily severe burns when accidents happen as they
> inevitably will. And nobody has posted anything yet that
> suggests that there are any benefits to 180'F coffee that
> come close to justifying the risks.
>
>
> --
> Reply to (E-Mail Removed)
> Do not remove anything.

im in the food service business
and most places their coffee is served at +\- 192 deg F

so 180 is cold

>>I didn't propose that anyone sue anyone else.
>>The only point I've been trying to make is that 180'F is
>>incredibly stupid for coffee. It exposes the customers -
>>and the servers, for that matter - to the risk of
>>unnecessarily severe burns when accidents happen as they
>>inevitably will. And nobody has posted anything yet that
>>suggests that there are any benefits to 180'F coffee that
>>come close to justifying the risks.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Reply to (E-Mail Removed)
>>Do not remove anything.
>
>
> im in the food service business
> and most places their coffee is served at +\- 192 deg F
>
> so 180 is cold
>

The incredibly stupid individuals are the ones trying to justify their
own stupidity. The vast majority of comments posted to this thread have
done nothing to demonstrate any logic or intelligence. They're only
trying to justify their own ignorance and stupidity, and why they should
blame someone else for their inability to take responsibility for their
own actions!

My mother, and other relatives, taught me when I was very young that hot
things burn. So, no matter where I purchased a hot cup of coffee I was
fully aware it had the capability to burn me and if I spilt it on
myself! It was my fault if I did, not someone else's!

Water boils at 212F or 100C. So, when you brew a pot of coffee at home
the water that is run over the coffee grounds is initially 212F! Do you
test it and wait until it is 130F before you drink it? I don't! It
would be like drinking **** water at that point. But, I don pour it on
my lap either!

So, if 180F is incredibly stupid for coffee, then it must be
Fahrenheit's fault for devising a temperature scale that indicated 212F
was the boiling point of water!

Locutus wrote:

>>I didn't propose that anyone sue anyone else.
>>The only point I've been trying to make is that 180'F is
>>incredibly stupid for coffee. It exposes the customers -
>>and the servers, for that matter - to the risk of
>>unnecessarily severe burns when accidents happen as they
>>inevitably will. And nobody has posted anything yet that
>>suggests that there are any benefits to 180'F coffee that
>>come close to justifying the risks.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Reply to (E-Mail Removed)
>>Do not remove anything.
>
>
> im in the food service business
> and most places their coffee is served at +\- 192 deg F
>
> so 180 is cold
>
>
The incredibly stupid individuals are the ones trying to justify their
own stupidity. The vast majority of comments posted to this thread have
done nothing to demonstrate any logic or intelligence. They're only
trying to justify their own ignorance and stupidity, and why they should
blame someone else for their inability to take responsibility for their
own actions!

My mother, and other relatives, taught me when I was very young that hot
things burn. So, no matter where I purchased a hot cup of coffee I was
fully aware it had the capability to burn me and if I spilt it on myself
it was my fault and not someone else's!

Water boils at 212F or 100C. So, when you brew a pot of coffee at home
the water that is run over the coffee grounds is initially 212F! Do you
test it and wait until it is 130F before you drink it? I don't! It
would be like drinking **** water at that point. But, I don't pour it
on my lap either!

So, if 180F is incredibly stupid for coffee, then it must be
Fahrenheit's fault for devising a temperature scale that indicated 212F
was the boiling point of water!

> >
> > im in the food service business
> > and most places their coffee is served at +\- 192 deg F
> >
> > so 180 is cold
> >
> >
> The incredibly stupid individuals are the ones trying to justify their
> own stupidity. The vast majority of comments posted to this thread have
> done nothing to demonstrate any logic or intelligence. They're only
> trying to justify their own ignorance and stupidity, and why they should
> blame someone else for their inability to take responsibility for their
> own actions!





I was not on any side here
just stating a fact

also I typo'd

it should have said 192 +/- 3 deg