I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
a hat.

Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
partition.

Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
(active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
"see" them.)

All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
and formatted).
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Liam

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
> XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
> a hat.

> Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
> NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
> one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
> partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
> the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
> partition.

> Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
> better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
> (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
> least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
> "see" them.)

> All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
> all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
> and formatted).
> Any ideas?
> Thanks,
> Liam

Potential reasons:

Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
a faultu cache entry or the like.

What would be interesting is whether there is any other
data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).

Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?

Arno

On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
> > XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
> > a hat.
> > Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
> > NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
> > one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
> > partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
> > the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
> > partition.
> > Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
> > better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
> > (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
> > least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
> > "see" them.)
> > All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
> > all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
> > and formatted).
> > Any ideas?
> > Thanks,
> > Liam
>
> Potential reasons:
>
> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>
> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>
> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>
> Arno

Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
can I use to view the attributes?

I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?

Thanks for the reply!
Liam

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
>> > XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
>> > a hat.
>> > Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
>> > NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
>> > one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
>> > partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
>> > the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
>> > partition.
>> > Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
>> > better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
>> > (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
>> > least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
>> > "see" them.)
>> > All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
>> > all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
>> > and formatted).
>> > Any ideas?
>> > Thanks,
>> > Liam
>>
>> Potential reasons:
>>
>> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
>> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
>> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
>> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>>
>> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
>> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
>> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>>
>> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
>> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>>
>> Arno

> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
> more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
> can I use to view the attributes?

I use the smartmontools (commandline, available on Linux
and windows). There is also a tool called "Everest", that
allows SMART access. And to just see the attributes, you can
use the current SpeedFan.

> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?

Run a long SMART selftest. It does a complete surface scan.

Arno

On Apr 1, 11:00*am, mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
> > > XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
> > > a hat.
> > > Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
> > > NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
> > > one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
> > > partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
> > > the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
> > > partition.
> > > Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
> > > better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
> > > (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
> > > least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
> > > "see" them.)
> > > All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
> > > all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
> > > and formatted).
> > > Any ideas?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Liam
>
> > Potential reasons:
>
> > Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
> > prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
> > writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
> > a faultu cache entry or the like.
>
> > What would be interesting is whether there is any other
> > data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
> > is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>
> > Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
> > really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>
> > Arno
>
> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
> more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
> can I use to view the attributes?
>
> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>
> Thanks for the reply!
> Liam- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Head over to Seagate's web site and get the diagnostics for the hard
drive.

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/sup...oads/seatools/

Until the drive has been tested and found to be "ok" do not use this
drive at all. It sounds like it is failing.

smlunatick wrote:
> On Apr 1, 11:00 am, mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
>>>> XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
>>>> a hat.
>>>> Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
>>>> NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
>>>> one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
>>>> partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
>>>> the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
>>>> partition.
>>>> Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
>>>> better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
>>>> (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
>>>> least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
>>>> "see" them.)
>>>> All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
>>>> all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
>>>> and formatted).
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Liam
>>> Potential reasons:
>>> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
>>> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
>>> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
>>> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>>> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
>>> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
>>> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>>> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
>>> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>>> Arno
>> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
>> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
>> more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
>> can I use to view the attributes?
>>
>> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
>> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>>
>> Thanks for the reply!
>> Liam- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Head over to Seagate's web site and get the diagnostics for the hard
> drive.
>
> http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/sup...oads/seatools/
>
> Until the drive has been tested and found to be "ok" do not use this
> drive at all. It sounds like it is failing.

Agreed, and for good measure, replace the sata cable. I've just thrown
out yet ANOTHER sata cable that was causing intermittent issues where
the drive would become inaccessible.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

On Apr 1, 12:37*pm, spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
> smlunatick wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 11:00 am, mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
> >>>> XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
> >>>> a hat.
> >>>> Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
> >>>> NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
> >>>> one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
> >>>> partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
> >>>> the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
> >>>> partition.
> >>>> Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
> >>>> better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
> >>>> (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
> >>>> least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
> >>>> "see" them.)
> >>>> All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
> >>>> all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
> >>>> and formatted).
> >>>> Any ideas?
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Liam
> >>> Potential reasons:
> >>> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
> >>> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
> >>> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
> >>> a faultu cache entry or the like.
> >>> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
> >>> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
> >>> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
> >>> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
> >>> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
> >>> Arno
> >> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
> >> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
> >> more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
> >> can I use to view the attributes?
>
> >> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
> >> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>
> >> Thanks for the reply!
> >> Liam- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Head over to Seagate's web site and get the diagnostics for the hard
> > drive.
>
> >http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/sup...oads/seatools/
>
> > Until the drive has been tested and found to be "ok" do not use this
> > drive at all. *It sounds like it is failing.
>
> Agreed, and for good measure, replace the sata cable. I've just thrown
> out yet ANOTHER sata cable that was causing intermittent issues where
> the drive would become inaccessible.
>
> Ari
>
> --
> spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
> Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
> volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:http://www.abmdr.org.au/http://www.marrow.org/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Drive not accessable is one thing. Erasure of all partition is
another and seems to indicate a big problem since the partitions are
gone but the drive still is connect (BIOS may show it.)

On Apr 1, 11:21 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a Win
> >> > XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the drop of
> >> > a hat.
> >> > Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3 primary
> >> > NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8 showed it as
> >> > one errored partition. I could get data off any of the three
> >> > partitions with a partition recovery program, but not actually restore
> >> > the partitions themselves. I finally had to 0-out the drive and re-
> >> > partition.
> >> > Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does know
> >> > better than that) it powered down, and when it came back, the first
> >> > (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as unformatted! (At
> >> > least the other 2 partitions are still there and Partition magic can
> >> > "see" them.)
> >> > All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking programs
> >> > all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's partitioned
> >> > and formatted).
> >> > Any ideas?
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Liam
>
> >> Potential reasons:
>
> >> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
> >> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
> >> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
> >> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>
> >> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
> >> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
> >> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>
> >> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
> >> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>
> >> Arno
> > Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
> > I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just cause
> > more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on, what tool
> > can I use to view the attributes?
>
> I use the smartmontools (commandline, available on Linux
> and windows). There is also a tool called "Everest", that
> allows SMART access. And to just see the attributes, you can
> use the current SpeedFan.
>
> > I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
> > then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>
> Run a long SMART selftest. It does a complete surface scan.
>
> Arno

Easy Recovery Pro found no drive errors, including surface scan, but
it did find partition errors. (And advised to do a drive test. Hrrm.)
The Everest SMART shows OK and "passes" on all lines for the drive.
The smartctl is a bit complicated... I used "-t long" and never got a
report.
But the -H switch indicates overall self-assessment test is PASSED.
Not sure what else I can check.
I'm going to reformat the lost partition and put the OS back on...and
then test again and see if anything changes.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> On Apr 1, 11:21 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a
>>>>> Win XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the
>>>>> drop of a hat.
>>>>> Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3
>>>>> primary NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8
>>>>> showed it as one errored partition. I could get data off any of
>>>>> the three partitions with a partition recovery program, but not
>>>>> actually restore the partitions themselves. I finally had to
>>>>> 0-out the drive and re- partition.
>>>>> Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does
>>>>> know better than that) it powered down, and when it came back,
>>>>> the first (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as
>>>>> unformatted! (At least the other 2 partitions are still there and
>>>>> Partition magic can "see" them.)
>>>>> All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking
>>>>> programs all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's
>>>>> partitioned and formatted).
>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Liam
>>
>>>> Potential reasons:
>>
>>>> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
>>>> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
>>>> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
>>>> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>>
>>>> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
>>>> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
>>>> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>>
>>>> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
>>>> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>>
>>>> Arno
>>> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
>>> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just
>>> cause more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on,
>>> what tool can I use to view the attributes?
>>
>> I use the smartmontools (commandline, available on Linux
>> and windows). There is also a tool called "Everest", that
>> allows SMART access. And to just see the attributes, you can
>> use the current SpeedFan.
>>
>>> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
>>> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>>
>> Run a long SMART selftest. It does a complete surface scan.
>>
>> Arno
>
> Easy Recovery Pro found no drive errors, including surface scan, but
> it did find partition errors. (And advised to do a drive test. Hrrm.)
> The Everest SMART shows OK and "passes" on all lines for the drive.

That doesnt prove anything, post the actual report.

> The smartctl is a bit complicated... I used "-t long" and never got a report.
> But the -H switch indicates overall self-assessment test is PASSED.
> Not sure what else I can check.
> I'm going to reformat the lost partition and put the OS back on...and
> then test again and see if anything changes.

On Apr 1, 3:17 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 11:21 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Apr 1, 10:43 am, Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mechphi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> I have a friend with a 250GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA (in a
> >>>>> Win XP Pro machine) that's throwing weird partition issues at the
> >>>>> drop of a hat.
> >>>>> Last week, after the PC crashed in a game, the entire drive (3
> >>>>> primary NTFS partitions) became inaccessible. Partition Magic 8
> >>>>> showed it as one errored partition. I could get data off any of
> >>>>> the three partitions with a partition recovery program, but not
> >>>>> actually restore the partitions themselves. I finally had to
> >>>>> 0-out the drive and re- partition.
> >>>>> Now, yesterday, a power surge during a rain storm (he really does
> >>>>> know better than that) it powered down, and when it came back,
> >>>>> the first (active) partition (this time FAT32) was showing as
> >>>>> unformatted! (At least the other 2 partitions are still there and
> >>>>> Partition magic can "see" them.)
> >>>>> All CHKDSK tests, Partition Magic tests, other drive checking
> >>>>> programs all discover no errors with the drive. (Well, once it's
> >>>>> partitioned and formatted).
> >>>>> Any ideas?
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Liam
>
> >>>> Potential reasons:
>
> >>>> Driver or hardware issues that cause transient problems and
> >>>> prevent timely write-back of information (unlikely) or cause
> >>>> writes to the wring areas. It may be faulty RAM. It may be
> >>>> a faultu cache entry or the like.
>
> >>>> What would be interesting is whether there is any other
> >>>> data corruption and what its exact form is (e.g.
> >>>> is there an all-zero sector or is some other data in it).
>
> >>>> Have you looked at the SMART attributes (any other test is
> >>>> really quite meaningless today) and tun a long SMART selftest?
>
> >>>> Arno
> >>> Hmm, how does one look at SMART attributes?
> >>> I normally have SMART off at the BIOS (have read SMART can just
> >>> cause more issues than it's worth oftentimes.) If I turn it on,
> >>> what tool can I use to view the attributes?
>
> >> I use the smartmontools (commandline, available on Linux
> >> and windows). There is also a tool called "Everest", that
> >> allows SMART access. And to just see the attributes, you can
> >> use the current SpeedFan.
>
> >>> I can do another 0'ing out of the drive. Once I do that, how can I
> >>> then check to see if indeed it wrote all 0's?
>
> >> Run a long SMART selftest. It does a complete surface scan.
>
> >> Arno
>
> > Easy Recovery Pro found no drive errors, including surface scan, but
> > it did find partition errors. (And advised to do a drive test. Hrrm.)
> > The Everest SMART shows OK and "passes" on all lines for the drive.
>
> That doesnt prove anything, post the actual report.
>
> > The smartctl is a bit complicated... I used "-t long" and never got a report.
> > But the -H switch indicates overall self-assessment test is PASSED.
> > Not sure what else I can check.
> > I'm going to reformat the lost partition and put the OS back on...and
> > then test again and see if anything changes.

Which report?
From smartctl? If so, using what switch? The -H or the -a...?