Yes John!

"Nak" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%AY1d.118407$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Nak" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> Nick,
>
> It may not be in your best interest to request that moderators review your
> posts since many of them are inappropriate and often inconsistent with
> their posting guidelines.
>
>>
>> Also, I have posted a complaint to (E-Mail Removed), if that's the
>> correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if
>> any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me.
>> And believe me, I would be greatly appreciative,
>
> >I would never go on a mission
>> to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.
>>
>
> I doubt that moderators are interested in assisting you in concealing your
> identity so that you can continue to make inappropriate posts inconsistent
> with their posting guidelines.
> If you have strong opinions, you should be willing to stand behind them by
> identifying yourself rather than making unsupported claims that you do not
> wish to be held accountable for.
>
> Nak
>

CJ,

LOL!, not really, I know who it is, I can do simple maths.

Nick.

"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Anyone else confused?
>
> "Nak" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Hi Cor,
>>
>> > And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt
> if
>> > it
>> > was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.
>>
>> I haven't been 100% nice in this thread, and have no intention of
>> starting. Yes that is my email address and web site, but I'm unsure as
>> to
>> *why* it has been posted. Obviously someone with allot of spare time on
>> their hands, "as if I don't know who".
>>
>> > You should have seen his post previous year that was really top flaming
>> > especialy when he did it with his mate.
>>
>> I have strong views just the same as everyone else, and last year
> their
>> were some heated discussions being has as I was developing software 24/7.
>> It gets to you at times when your not having much luck with whatever your
>> currently working on.
>>
>> Also, I have posted a complaint to (E-Mail Removed), if that's the
>> correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if
> any
>> of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me. And
>> believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go on a
>> mission
>> to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.
>>
>> Nick.
>>
>>
>
>

Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in this
thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.

Steve

Hey!

I had left the thread until I noticed my personal details appear!!!, sheesh!

But yes, I agree, it's childish, and I would also like my email address
removed, I don't mind giving it in an "obfuscated" way, but not clear text
in this group. Not that it will get removed!

Nick.

"Steve McLellan" <sjm.NOSPAM AT fixerlabs DOT com> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in
> this
> thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
> nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
> mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.
>
> Steve
>
>

Steve,

Thanks for attempting to inject some sanity back into this group. This is a
technical forum and many users are interested in discussing the issues
associated with .NET decompilation and obfuscation. Since the title of this
thread mentions our product directly, I am particularly interested in
keeping the discussions on a technical level and relevant to the interst of
readers in this group. I appreciate your attempts to monitor this thread and
ensure that discussions here remain technical and relevant in nature.

I will continue to monitor the thread as well and answer technical issues
related to decompilation, obfuscation, refactoring, or directly related to
our product mentioned here.

Readers are also free to contact me directly at (E-Mail Removed)

Jonathan Pierce
President
Jungle Creatures, Inc.
http://www.junglecreatures.com/



"Steve McLellan" <sjm.NOSPAM AT fixerlabs DOT com> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in
> this
> thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
> nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
> mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.
>
> Steve
>
>

Jonathan Pierce wrote:

> "Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> > > Oh, your obfuscator obviously produces 100% reliable code,
> > > I'm sure, but I don't live in dreamland.
>
> Yes it does. You should try it before you make assumptions about it.

It would be the first obfuscator being able to do so.

> Our obfuscator generates equivalent obfuscated source code with
> refactored public members and encrypted literals that you recompile.

No pre-jitted x86 code? No reshuffled code ? you have to if you want to do
the more advanced obfuscation that you claim to be able to do.

> Each version of Decompiler.NET that we release is decompiled and
> obfuscated with itself, and then recompiled to produce the version
> that ships. Most bugs introduced by decompilation or obfuscation would
> cause the recompiled version of our product to not work correctly, so
> we would detect them before even releasing the build.

That's not the point. The point is: can reshuffling, prejitting be safe for
100%? Every obfuscator I tried (on .NET and java) have the same issues: code
obfuscated is sometimes failing in weird situations, often related to 3rd
party controls in combination with events.

Unless theoretic proof is provided that the code is 100% compatible with
non-obfuscated code, every vendor obfuscating their work will be required to
retest the obfuscated executable from start to finish.

FB
--
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP

Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
marker, would you all have been as assinine?

I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's who
don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it off
as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.

Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about the
title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.

This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that. The consistent harrassment of
someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been started.
However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect to
be treated badly as a result.

Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these newsgroups.
Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
microsoft.

If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of the
team), I just forget who.

"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> BTW,
>
> I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
> talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
> compare it to something like RSA.
>
> So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
> make
> sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.

Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make *ONE*
off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what was
still visible in my reader window.

> Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
> marker, would you all have been as assinine?
>

Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have
made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with it.

The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big brother
to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
*lazy* tactics
to scan the groups and see that.

> I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's
who
> don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it
off
> as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
> tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.
>
> Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
> you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about
the
> title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.
>

Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be
binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding
part of the MVP? What's holding you back?

So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And because
of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines when
to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?

if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid after
all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means I
have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel good.

> This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.

Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we are all
agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation insisiting
that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself included)
explained we already knew.

>The consistent harrassment of
> someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been
started.

What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't think
many others do either.

> However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect
to
> be treated badly as a result.
>

Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for
Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone
says about there software as truth?

So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.

> Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these newsgroups.
> Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
> microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
> microsoft.
>

I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read more
carefully.

> If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of
the
> team), I just forget who.
>
>> > BTW,
> >
> > I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
> > talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
> > compare it to something like RSA.
> >
> > So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
> > make
> > sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.
>
> Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make
*ONE*
> off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what was
> still visible in my reader window.
>
>

2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe one
day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...

CJ,

I feel that Daniel was completely justified in his attempts to moderate this
forum in attempts to keep the discussion technical in nature and to point
out his observations regarding inappropriate, inaccurate, and often
harassing posts.

> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.

I don't know whether Daniel was referring to the harassment of the post
authors he mentioned with regard to the original post author or to myself,
but I personally felt harrassed and was forced to respond to inaccurate
accusations about our companues products to defend our companies reputation.
I would much prefer to spend my time answering technical questions relevant
to the topic of decompilation, obfuscation, and refactoring being discussed
in this thread.

There were many posts in this thread mainly from the users that Daniel
mentioned that were antagonistic, and made inaccurate claims about our
product and company ranging from statements regarding having illegally
decompiled our source code, to threats about posting it publicly, to
accusations that we did not author our own code or give proper credit to the
3rd party libraries that we legally licensed and credit in our About Box.

I appreciate your apology earlier but now you are reverting to a similar
style of defensive behavior that Daniel has taken his time to point out.

I'd personally like to stop having to waste my time defending our company
against inaccurate knowingly false malicious accusations about our product
and inaccurate vague assumptions that and statements that are libelous in
nature and directly harm us financially. It would be nice to be able to keep
these discussions technical in nature with an even tone but I've found that
aside from responding to posts asking their authors to back up their false
and derogatory statements, my only alternative will be to pursue legal
resources to recover damages made to our company and it's reputation.

I applaud Daniel 100% for his actions here, and would like to see more MVP's
become more vocal in moderating these forums. I also think that these
technical newsgroups should be restricted to not accept anonymous or spoofed
messages or at mininum, flag them as not credible posts.

Jonathan


"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
>> marker, would you all have been as assinine?
>>
>
> Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have
> made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with
> it.
>
> The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big
> brother
> to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
> *lazy* tactics
> to scan the groups and see that.
>
>> I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's
> who
>> don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it
> off
>> as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
>> tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.
>>
>> Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
>> you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about
> the
>> title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.
>>
>
> Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be
> binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding
> part of the MVP? What's holding you back?
>
> So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And
> because
> of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines
> when
> to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?
>
> if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid after
> all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means
> I
> have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
> get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel
> good.
>
>> This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.
>
> Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we are
> all
> agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation insisiting
> that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself included)
> explained we already knew.
>
>>The consistent harrassment of
>> someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been
> started.
>
> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.
>
>> However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect
> to
>> be treated badly as a result.
>>
>
> Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for
> Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
> decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone
> says about there software as truth?
>
> So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.
>
>> Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these
>> newsgroups.
>> Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
>> microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
>> microsoft.
>>
>
> I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read
> more
> carefully.
>
>> If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of
> the
>> team), I just forget who.
>>
>>> > BTW,
>> >
>> > I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
>> > talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
>> > compare it to something like RSA.
>> >
>> > So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
>> > make
>> > sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.
>>
>> Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make
> *ONE*
>> off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what
>> was
>> still visible in my reader window.
>>
>>
>
> 2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
> trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe one
> day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...
>
>
>
>

Nak <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Also, I have posted a complaint to (E-Mail Removed), if that's the
> correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so
> if any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for
> me. And believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go
> on a mission to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very
> sad! Anyways.

This group is effectively unmoderated - it's certainly not moderated by
MVPs. If a particular post warrants removal, I believe anyone can make
a complaint. (It may be dealt with more swiftly if the person
complaining is an MVP, but that's about it.)

Daniel wasn't moderating the group - he was expressing his opinions
about some posts, as have other people on the thread.

--
Jon Skeet - <(E-Mail Removed)>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too