Actual trouble ticket follows. Reference DEJ-83192 to
(E-Mail Removed) I'm not a programmer, I've rudely crossposted
this, and I apologize for all of that. I'm quite sure anyone here can
point out many inconsistencies etc. I'm asking for folks here to
download cybersitter and determine what the cybersitter program is doing
that may kill .Net Framework communications within a network.

I'm asking for straightforward feedback to my e-mail or the one above.
I'm not a programmer, or developer, I'm a simple person pointing out
that which will not work. With a truly laughable amount of time to fix
that which will not work.

I truly would like to see things work.

SSEJohn.
(I can get people where they need to be in a world that is working. I
just need a world that works right to get them there.)
posted:
microsoft.public.dotnet.academic,microsoft.public.dotnet.distributed_apps,microsoft.public.dotnet.framework


_________________________________________________________________
Don't close the ticket, this just took a turn for the ugly.
Full description of problem follows.

All Windows 98 SE Machines - No official server (Just one server
program)

Loaded Cybersitter onto healthy school network (no issues).
2 weeks later, received reports of ATP.com critical software won't
start.
Tried to run ATP software, seemed to try and start (processor clicking)
Sudden stop of clicks, client side program fails to load.
No error pop-ups or conflict popups.
Attempted to run on several other identical machines.
One loads the program, while running the cybersitter software.
Next day, the working computer fails to load the ATP program.
Turned off all filtering, then disabled cybersitter.
Client side program failed to load. No error notices.
Excluded filtering on all available ports. All filtering disabled.
(all removed filters from client side and server side.)
Client side program failed to load.
Uninstalled Cybersitter from server and client.
Client loads and runs ATP program.
Contacted ATP.
Their client/server arrangement is using Microsoft's .Net Framework ver
1.1
As I saw the client program run on one machine with Cybersitter running,
I suspect a conflict with one of the automatic updates to Cybersitter.
Nothing else in the network is auto-updating.

I believe resolution to problem may lie in uninstalling the program and
re-installing the program w/out updates. BUT, re-installation of
Cybersitter appears to keep previously updated settings. I need a
complete removal of all settings and previous updates that may be held
onto. This may cause licensing problems (25 licenses for the lab).

Currently running up a standalone installation of ATP to determine
incompatibility of basic programming and to isolate .Net Framework
incompatibility (which I suspect).

Request instructions on removal of updates to prior installations of
Cybersitter and licensing protections for the 25 computers in the lab
which may require removal and re-installation for all computers.

Further troubleshooting may resolve issues with .Net Framework
compatibility (suspected) on a regulated Cybersitter updates
installation.

5 year school re-certification by the ACCSCT for the school is tomorrow.
The ATP software is critical to recertification to the school - the
reason for all the sudden changes of priorities. All Cybersitter
installations will be removed during the recertification process to
enable access to the ATP program using the .Net Framework platform.
This is, in fact, a fatal error for all should it remain unresolved. Or
a bonus for all should it be resolved.

You sound frustrated.

Most of the apps that pretend to make your system safe for children install
themselves as a proxy in the TCP stack. They monitor all incoming and
outgoing communications and block anything that they don't feel is
"correct." Usually, web sites that don't want to fall afoul of these
applications will place a file on their site that these apps look for. The
file indicates what content the site will contain. If there is no file, the
site is assumed to be 'bad' and its content is screened.

You are probably seeing something like this. I'm not surprised. BTW, this
is not the fault of the framework. All TCP stack operations are affected by
these apps, regardless of the language platform.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"ssejohn" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Actual trouble ticket follows. Reference DEJ-83192 to
> (E-Mail Removed) I'm not a programmer, I've rudely crossposted
> this, and I apologize for all of that. I'm quite sure anyone here can
> point out many inconsistencies etc. I'm asking for folks here to
> download cybersitter and determine what the cybersitter program is doing
> that may kill .Net Framework communications within a network.
>
> I'm asking for straightforward feedback to my e-mail or the one above.
> I'm not a programmer, or developer, I'm a simple person pointing out
> that which will not work. With a truly laughable amount of time to fix
> that which will not work.
>
> I truly would like to see things work.
>
> SSEJohn.
> (I can get people where they need to be in a world that is working. I
> just need a world that works right to get them there.)
> posted:
> microsoft.public.dotnet.academic,microsoft.public.dotnet.distributed_apps,microsoft.public.dotnet.framework
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't close the ticket, this just took a turn for the ugly.
> Full description of problem follows.
>
> All Windows 98 SE Machines - No official server (Just one server
> program)
>
> Loaded Cybersitter onto healthy school network (no issues).
> 2 weeks later, received reports of ATP.com critical software won't
> start.
> Tried to run ATP software, seemed to try and start (processor clicking)
> Sudden stop of clicks, client side program fails to load.
> No error pop-ups or conflict popups.
> Attempted to run on several other identical machines.
> One loads the program, while running the cybersitter software.
> Next day, the working computer fails to load the ATP program.
> Turned off all filtering, then disabled cybersitter.
> Client side program failed to load. No error notices.
> Excluded filtering on all available ports. All filtering disabled.
> (all removed filters from client side and server side.)
> Client side program failed to load.
> Uninstalled Cybersitter from server and client.
> Client loads and runs ATP program.
> Contacted ATP.
> Their client/server arrangement is using Microsoft's .Net Framework ver
> 1.1
> As I saw the client program run on one machine with Cybersitter running,
> I suspect a conflict with one of the automatic updates to Cybersitter.
> Nothing else in the network is auto-updating.
>
> I believe resolution to problem may lie in uninstalling the program and
> re-installing the program w/out updates. BUT, re-installation of
> Cybersitter appears to keep previously updated settings. I need a
> complete removal of all settings and previous updates that may be held
> onto. This may cause licensing problems (25 licenses for the lab).
>
> Currently running up a standalone installation of ATP to determine
> incompatibility of basic programming and to isolate .Net Framework
> incompatibility (which I suspect).
>
> Request instructions on removal of updates to prior installations of
> Cybersitter and licensing protections for the 25 computers in the lab
> which may require removal and re-installation for all computers.
>
> Further troubleshooting may resolve issues with .Net Framework
> compatibility (suspected) on a regulated Cybersitter updates
> installation.
>
> 5 year school re-certification by the ACCSCT for the school is tomorrow.
> The ATP software is critical to recertification to the school - the
> reason for all the sudden changes of priorities. All Cybersitter
> installations will be removed during the recertification process to
> enable access to the ATP program using the .Net Framework platform.
> This is, in fact, a fatal error for all should it remain unresolved. Or
> a bonus for all should it be resolved.
>

It is really frustrating, Nick. Forget the children :-)
Our Vo-Tech school just opened up internet access to the student body 3
weeks ago in the computer lab. Within 2 weeks, two computers have
pop-up blasters, spyware, and are basically unplugged as dead PCs.
Several others are well on the way to extinction.

One security package can limit what programs can run, but, it wipes out
one of 3 critical school training apps.

The cybersitter cures so much of happenstance garbage sites on the net,
it's a godsend. But, it wipes out the second of 3 critical school
training apps through a program conflict.

Turns out the atp/cybersitter conflict isn't a filtering tcp/ip issue,
though. I ran up the atp as a standalone program today, not required to
access the internet, or other computers at all. It's an outright
program conflict. With Cybersitter running and no filtering turned on,
and ATP not having to access other computers, or the internet, ATP app
still fails to load. There is no workaround for the conflict.

Cybersitter is perfectly designed for Vo-Tech schools in my position and
ATP is designed just for Vo-Tech schools. Both development groups on
both ends are really interested in figuring out what's wrong, and the
layers of helpdesk between the two are going to keep them apart far
longer than the computer lab will last. Tomorrow, I'll probably just
limit all access to the internet to specific sites as a stopgap against
wholesale destruction. Right before recertification for the school.

Frustrated, yes. Never defeated. It's an outright program conflict
now. Windows gives no error reports on the failed start of ATP. I've
got nothing to give the developers on either side to work with. The go
between on the ATP side is at least forwarding the developer e-mails to
me at this point. I'm going to go send the Cybersitter folks the bad
news now.

http://www.atp.com/
http://www.cybersitter.com/

Personally, I don't allow filtering of any sites other than where
programs are likely to load onto a PC and destroy it's functionality.

That is all I care about. Continuing education on how to make an
aircraft meet the ground on it's tires rather than its nose. I just
happen to be handier with a computer than a retired Delta mechanic is.

And so ever forward the march :-)

John
(ATP databases contain the latest updates from the FAA regarding every
little thing that has ever brought down any aircraft mechanically that
has to be changed.)





"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>You sound frustrated.
>
>Most of the apps that pretend to make your system safe for children install
>themselves as a proxy in the TCP stack. They monitor all incoming and
>outgoing communications and block anything that they don't feel is
>"correct." Usually, web sites that don't want to fall afoul of these
>applications will place a file on their site that these apps look for. The
>file indicates what content the site will contain. If there is no file, the
>site is assumed to be 'bad' and its content is screened.
>
>You are probably seeing something like this. I'm not surprised. BTW, this
>is not the fault of the framework. All TCP stack operations are affected by
>these apps, regardless of the language platform.
>
>--
>--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
> MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
> http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik
>
>Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
>representative of my employer.
> I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
>programmer helping programmers.

I commiserate.

Instead of cybersitter, which is only really good for preventing access to
internet sites, why not use Spybot Search and Destroy? (free... see
www.download.com to get a copy). I would like to recommend the new
Microsoft anti-spyware but it is still in beta.

Spybot (which I use at home) will prevent infection from the vast majority
of spyware and trojans. It isn't perfect, but it is pretty good.

You also need a good anti-virus app to be installed on every machine. The
major ones have no problem at all with .Net framework (although you may need
to turn off virus scanning while installing things).

Cybersitter is not an anti-virus app. It is not a spyware remover. It is a
web site filtering app. It fundamentally alters the TCP stack. That is
very likely what is causing your app to fail, even when you are disconnected
from the internet.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"ssejohn" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It is really frustrating, Nick. Forget the children :-)
> Our Vo-Tech school just opened up internet access to the student body 3
> weeks ago in the computer lab. Within 2 weeks, two computers have
> pop-up blasters, spyware, and are basically unplugged as dead PCs.
> Several others are well on the way to extinction.
>
> One security package can limit what programs can run, but, it wipes out
> one of 3 critical school training apps.
>
> The cybersitter cures so much of happenstance garbage sites on the net,
> it's a godsend. But, it wipes out the second of 3 critical school
> training apps through a program conflict.
>
> Turns out the atp/cybersitter conflict isn't a filtering tcp/ip issue,
> though. I ran up the atp as a standalone program today, not required to
> access the internet, or other computers at all. It's an outright
> program conflict. With Cybersitter running and no filtering turned on,
> and ATP not having to access other computers, or the internet, ATP app
> still fails to load. There is no workaround for the conflict.
>
> Cybersitter is perfectly designed for Vo-Tech schools in my position and
> ATP is designed just for Vo-Tech schools. Both development groups on
> both ends are really interested in figuring out what's wrong, and the
> layers of helpdesk between the two are going to keep them apart far
> longer than the computer lab will last. Tomorrow, I'll probably just
> limit all access to the internet to specific sites as a stopgap against
> wholesale destruction. Right before recertification for the school.
>
> Frustrated, yes. Never defeated. It's an outright program conflict
> now. Windows gives no error reports on the failed start of ATP. I've
> got nothing to give the developers on either side to work with. The go
> between on the ATP side is at least forwarding the developer e-mails to
> me at this point. I'm going to go send the Cybersitter folks the bad
> news now.
>
> http://www.atp.com/
> http://www.cybersitter.com/
>
> Personally, I don't allow filtering of any sites other than where
> programs are likely to load onto a PC and destroy it's functionality.
>
> That is all I care about. Continuing education on how to make an
> aircraft meet the ground on it's tires rather than its nose. I just
> happen to be handier with a computer than a retired Delta mechanic is.
>
> And so ever forward the march :-)
>
> John
> (ATP databases contain the latest updates from the FAA regarding every
> little thing that has ever brought down any aircraft mechanically that
> has to be changed.)
>
>
>
>
>
> "Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>You sound frustrated.
>>
>>Most of the apps that pretend to make your system safe for children
>>install
>>themselves as a proxy in the TCP stack. They monitor all incoming and
>>outgoing communications and block anything that they don't feel is
>>"correct." Usually, web sites that don't want to fall afoul of these
>>applications will place a file on their site that these apps look for.
>>The
>>file indicates what content the site will contain. If there is no file,
>>the
>>site is assumed to be 'bad' and its content is screened.
>>
>>You are probably seeing something like this. I'm not surprised. BTW,
>>this
>>is not the fault of the framework. All TCP stack operations are affected
>>by
>>these apps, regardless of the language platform.
>>
>>--
>>--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
>> MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik
>>
>>Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
>>representative of my employer.
>> I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
>>programmer helping programmers.
>