Hello group,

I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a larger
one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it necessary
to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP packages.
Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs involved. Thanks.

rc wrote:
> Hello group,
>
> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a larger
> one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it necessary
> to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP packages.
> Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs involved. Thanks.
>
>


Many hard drive manufacturers provide a free hard drive cloning utility
for just this purpose, when you purchase one of their products.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

On Mar 7, 5:25*pm, "rc" <rc@home> wrote:
> Hello group,
>
> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a larger
> one. *Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? *Is it necessary
> to purchase software to do so. *PC running SP with all the SP packages.
> Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs involved. *Thanks.

I used Acronis trueimage to do exactly what you want to do, the fully
functional free trial lasts 30 days IIRC which was fine for my
purposes. i had the new HDD in a USB caddy, copied my C: drive to it
using Acronis then swapped the old HDD out for the one in the caddy.


http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing...cts/trueimage/

As Bruce said but sometimes it does not come with the
purchased HD and you need to go to the manufacturers
website to download it.
You install the program and hook your new HD up
When you run the program it "clones" your old drive to the new.
you then shut down and remove the old drive and connect the new
drive to the same connector as the old was connected to.
Then start up and all should run as intended...but as always there
are no guarantees...
peter

--
If you find a posting or message from me offensive,inappropriate
or disruptive,please ignore it.
If you dont know how to ignore a posting complain
to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate :-)

"rc" <rc@home> wrote in message news:eT8F$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hello group,
>
> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a larger
> one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it necessary
> to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP packages.
> Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs involved. Thanks.
>
>

Thanks all.
"peter" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> As Bruce said but sometimes it does not come with the
> purchased HD and you need to go to the manufacturers
> website to download it.
> You install the program and hook your new HD up
> When you run the program it "clones" your old drive to the new.
> you then shut down and remove the old drive and connect the new
> drive to the same connector as the old was connected to.
> Then start up and all should run as intended...but as always there
> are no guarantees...
> peter
>
> --
> If you find a posting or message from me offensive,inappropriate
> or disruptive,please ignore it.
> If you dont know how to ignore a posting complain
> to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate :-)
>
> "rc" <rc@home> wrote in message
> news:eT8F$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a
>> larger one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it
>> necessary to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP
>> packages. Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs
>> involved. Thanks.

rc wrote:
> Hello group,
>
> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a larger
> one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it necessary
> to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP packages.
> Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs involved. Thanks.
>

Most of the hard drives that are for sale, consist of just the
hard drive mechanism. When you need the software, you download
it from the manufacturer site.

Such a drive is called "OEM" or "white box", because it comes
with nothing. A "retail" drive, would come in a nice padded box,
with perhaps a ribbon cable, adapter plates, jumpers, software CD,
and warranty paper. Modern sales techniques now, usually result
in a user getting the OEM type, which comes with nothing. Of two OEM
drives I bought recently, one had a jumper available on the back
in the jumper area, while the second drive had none. So your purchase
is about as "bare" as it gets. Depending on the e-tailer selling the
hard drive, it may not even be packed safely for courier transport
(UPS treatment). (This is one reason I buy drives locally, from a
company that pulls one from the padded box and hands it to you. Then
I know the drive wasn't flopping around in a UPS box.)

For Seagate, you can get DiskWizard software here. The DiskWizard
software is actually Acronis branded software, provided by Seagate.

http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.js...00dd04090aRCRD

Note - if you copy your C: (boot) partition to the new disk, and
plan to boot from the new disk, remember to physically disconnect
the old disk, when booting the new disk for the first time.
Once the new disk has been used to boot the computer at least
once alone, you can then re-connect the old drive at a later
date and continue to use it. It is just the first reboot
of the new disk, where the old disk should be disconnected.

*******

In terms of the hard drives, they come in two types. Older
computers use a ribbon cable to connect the hard drive. They're
referred to now as PATA. PATA is a dying breed, and the disk manufacturers
have stopped making them. What few of them remain, are old stock.

"Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3160215A 160GB 7200 RPM 2MB Cache IDE "

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148212

This is an example of the older ribbon cable drives in action.

http://freepctech.com/pc/001/install..._devices.shtml

Most of the drives for sale now are SATA. There is a 15 pin power
connector and a 7 pin data connector on those. And a thin cable
is used for the data connection to the drive.

To convert from a SATA drive, to a PATA connector, you can use
one of these.

"IDE2SAT" - black part 15+7 pin thing, plugs into the back of the
SATA drive. The 40 pin header on the back, connects to the computer
ribbon cable. The little jumper on the left, supports "Master" or
"Slave" operation. There is also a power cable provided in the
box with this one. (Some IDE host to SATA drive adapters, come
with no power cable, which is stupid. On those, a cable may be
purchased separately.)

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/12-200-156-S01?$S640W$

Using the adapter, chances are you'll be able to boot from the new
drive.

Intel does not recommend or approve of the use of those kinds
of adapters, but I've been using that particular one without
problems. The hardest part of using it, is getting the ribbon
cable connector off the adapter later. There is no convenient
way of easing the connector off the pins.

This is a view of the interface area on the newer SATA drive.
You can see the 15 pin power and 7 pin data on the left. There
can also be some jumper pins on the drive. One jumper position
is "Force 150", for forcing the cable to operate at the lower
150MB/sec interface rate. That jumper is used, if the computer
motherboard has a VIA chipset for the SATA interface. Otherwise,
there isn't generally a reason to be using the jumper section
on a SATA drive. It is more "Plug and Play" than the older
ribbon cable type of drive. On the ribbon cable kind of
drives, you have to worry about what jumper setting to use.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/22-136-496-S02?$S640$

Computers can be limited, as to how large a drive they will support.
Computers designed after the year 2003, are probably OK.
There is little information available otherwise, as to which older
computers are going to be a pain to work with. I have an eleven year
old motherboard, that supports drives up to 137GB. Motherboards a
few years older than that, have a 64GB or so limitation.

Real PATA drives (not just an adapted SATA drive), have a jumper
position called "Clip". The clip jumper is used to change the
geometry the drive reports to the BIOS. It provided a convenient
means, to change a drive to having a size of around 33GB or so.
Such a trick is useful for those older computers which won't support
big drives. But once all the PATA drives are gone from retail,
then there won't be any way to "clip" a SATA drive, to match that
behavior. So it will be more difficult to find a good drive option,
for the really old computers (12+ years old).

Paul

Now the computer using the new disk will not boot. The windows XP screen
begins and then promptly keeps attempting to restart. As far as I could
tell the migration went ok (solely based on the completion messages/results
given by the Acronis software). I'm assuming the migration would include
making the disk bootable???
Before I attempted any "cloning" I formatted the new disk and ran ckdsk and
no errors were reported. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
"Paul" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:hn1grs$92s$(E-Mail Removed)...
> rc wrote:
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I am running out of space on my hard drive and want to migrate to a
>> larger one. Can I "copy" my current hard drive onto a larger one? Is it
>> necessary to purchase software to do so. PC running SP with all the SP
>> packages. Also would hate to have to reinstall the many programs
>> involved. Thanks.
>
> Most of the hard drives that are for sale, consist of just the
> hard drive mechanism. When you need the software, you download
> it from the manufacturer site.
>
> Such a drive is called "OEM" or "white box", because it comes
> with nothing. A "retail" drive, would come in a nice padded box,
> with perhaps a ribbon cable, adapter plates, jumpers, software CD,
> and warranty paper. Modern sales techniques now, usually result
> in a user getting the OEM type, which comes with nothing. Of two OEM
> drives I bought recently, one had a jumper available on the back
> in the jumper area, while the second drive had none. So your purchase
> is about as "bare" as it gets. Depending on the e-tailer selling the
> hard drive, it may not even be packed safely for courier transport
> (UPS treatment). (This is one reason I buy drives locally, from a
> company that pulls one from the padded box and hands it to you. Then
> I know the drive wasn't flopping around in a UPS box.)
>
> For Seagate, you can get DiskWizard software here. The DiskWizard
> software is actually Acronis branded software, provided by Seagate.
>
> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.js...00dd04090aRCRD
>
> Note - if you copy your C: (boot) partition to the new disk, and
> plan to boot from the new disk, remember to physically disconnect
> the old disk, when booting the new disk for the first time.
> Once the new disk has been used to boot the computer at least
> once alone, you can then re-connect the old drive at a later
> date and continue to use it. It is just the first reboot
> of the new disk, where the old disk should be disconnected.
>
> *******
>
> In terms of the hard drives, they come in two types. Older
> computers use a ribbon cable to connect the hard drive. They're
> referred to now as PATA. PATA is a dying breed, and the disk manufacturers
> have stopped making them. What few of them remain, are old stock.
>
> "Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3160215A 160GB 7200 RPM 2MB Cache IDE "
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148212
>
> This is an example of the older ribbon cable drives in action.
>
> http://freepctech.com/pc/001/install..._devices.shtml
>
> Most of the drives for sale now are SATA. There is a 15 pin power
> connector and a 7 pin data connector on those. And a thin cable
> is used for the data connection to the drive.
>
> To convert from a SATA drive, to a PATA connector, you can use
> one of these.
>
> "IDE2SAT" - black part 15+7 pin thing, plugs into the back of the
> SATA drive. The 40 pin header on the back, connects to the computer
> ribbon cable. The little jumper on the left, supports "Master" or
> "Slave" operation. There is also a power cable provided in the
> box with this one. (Some IDE host to SATA drive adapters, come
> with no power cable, which is stupid. On those, a cable may be
> purchased separately.)
>
> http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/12-200-156-S01?$S640W$
>
> Using the adapter, chances are you'll be able to boot from the new
> drive.
>
> Intel does not recommend or approve of the use of those kinds
> of adapters, but I've been using that particular one without
> problems. The hardest part of using it, is getting the ribbon
> cable connector off the adapter later. There is no convenient
> way of easing the connector off the pins.
>
> This is a view of the interface area on the newer SATA drive.
> You can see the 15 pin power and 7 pin data on the left. There
> can also be some jumper pins on the drive. One jumper position
> is "Force 150", for forcing the cable to operate at the lower
> 150MB/sec interface rate. That jumper is used, if the computer
> motherboard has a VIA chipset for the SATA interface. Otherwise,
> there isn't generally a reason to be using the jumper section
> on a SATA drive. It is more "Plug and Play" than the older
> ribbon cable type of drive. On the ribbon cable kind of
> drives, you have to worry about what jumper setting to use.
>
> http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/22-136-496-S02?$S640$
>
> Computers can be limited, as to how large a drive they will support.
> Computers designed after the year 2003, are probably OK.
> There is little information available otherwise, as to which older
> computers are going to be a pain to work with. I have an eleven year
> old motherboard, that supports drives up to 137GB. Motherboards a
> few years older than that, have a 64GB or so limitation.
>
> Real PATA drives (not just an adapted SATA drive), have a jumper
> position called "Clip". The clip jumper is used to change the
> geometry the drive reports to the BIOS. It provided a convenient
> means, to change a drive to having a size of around 33GB or so.
> Such a trick is useful for those older computers which won't support
> big drives. But once all the PATA drives are gone from retail,
> then there won't be any way to "clip" a SATA drive, to match that
> behavior. So it will be more difficult to find a good drive option,
> for the really old computers (12+ years old).
>
> Paul

rc wrote:
> Now the computer using the new disk will not boot. The windows XP screen
> begins and then promptly keeps attempting to restart. As far as I could
> tell the migration went ok (solely based on the completion messages/results
> given by the Acronis software). I'm assuming the migration would include
> making the disk bootable???
> Before I attempted any "cloning" I formatted the new disk and ran ckdsk and
> no errors were reported. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

That sounds like you partitioned the disk, and then used Acronis to
copy just the files across. Perhaps you could use Acronis to just
make a complete copy of the old C: partition ? That is likely the
easiest option. I'm not an Acronis user, as I have enough junk
of one sort and another here, to get the job done.

*******

When I've done that (just copy files from old partition, to newly
prepared formatted partition), the bit that is missing is the boot
sectors. A program like Robocopy (Microsoft) can be used to copy files
and preserve permissions and so on. But it doesn't copy the boot sectors.

The boot sectors can be put back, by using the Recovery Console and "fixboot".
You take a WinXP installer CD, boot that, and select Recovery Console.
"fixboot" is a command available, once you're running in the Recovery Console.
It isn't clear to me, how you'd get a Recovery Console, if you had a Dell.

"Recovery Console overview"
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d....mspx?mfr=true

"To install the Recovery Console as a startup option"
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d....mspx?mfr=true

(List of commands, including fixboot. Fixboot accepts a drive letter, so you
can fix that new disk.)

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314058

So perhaps there is some other option in Acronis. It would be pretty
silly if it couldn't copy a bootable partition with it. I don't use
Acronis here. (Copying sector by sector, then using Partition Magic,
is the way I do it.)

*******

To copy sector by sector, I use "dd" or Disk Dump. There is even a
port for Windows. If your new disk is bigger than the old disk, you
can copy the entire disk with one command, like this

dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb

That would copy all the partitions from one disk to another, and
even copy the MBR in sector 0. The Windows port of "dd", uses
a different naming convention for disks (the Windows naming conventions),
but you use the "dd --list" option, to get names for all the disks.

Once the disk is copied, the partitions would be the wrong size.
By using my copy of Partition Magic, I could resize any partition
as desired. Since the new disk is bigger than the old, I might resize
one of the partitions, to use the slack space left on the new disk.

If I wanted to copy just one partition, in the Linux world the partitions
are numbered. The Windows naming convention also numbers the partitions.
(Partition0 is the whole disk. Partition1 is just the first partition.)

dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/hdb1

I would first need to make a new entry in the MBR of the output disk.
I set that up using "fdisk" in Linux, which allows me to define
primary partitions on a new disk. I suppose I could also do that
from Disk Management, and save time by not formatting the partition.
(Since I'm about to replace all the sectors in that partition by doing
a sector by sector copy.) Then, I can use "dd" to copy the
sectors.

So it is easy to be a bit more surgical, but the problem remains
that the partition must be resized after this step is complete.
There is at least one free package for Windows, that will do
partition resizing. I have an older copy of Partition Magic, that
I use once in a while for this, so I haven't needed to use the free
one. (Since you'd only be using the free partition resizer on your
new, cloned disk, there is little danger of any permanent damage,
as you can start over again if it screws up.)

The port of "dd" is here. This runs in a Command (MSDOS) window.

http://www.chrysocome.net/dd

To review the four primary partition entries, if I'm in Windows,
I can use this. ptedit32 is a free download. This allows me to
compare the partitions of the source and destination disks, if I
need to. (I can also do that using "fdisk" in Linux if I wanted.
It all depends on where I am, as to which I might use.) I use this,
when I need exact numbers for sizes.

PTEDIT32 for Windows
ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/englis...s/PTEDIT32.zip

PTEDIT32 screenshot
http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/...0-dell-tbl.gif

Basically, what I'd be looking for there, is confirmation that the
source partition and destination partition, are the same size. So
there are no "accidents" when using "dd".

"dd" can be used to copy all or a part of something. It takes
a block size argument, a count argument, and using those arguments
can make "dd" run about three times faster. The command also accepts
seek and skip options, for snipping just a section out of a partition
or a single file. I haven't given any examples of that in the above,
but I have used seek/skip, when trying to find the metadata on a
raid array. Since I don't have a disk editor program, I can snip a
couple meg up near the end of the disk, and then use a regular hex
editor to look at the data.

*******

I think getting Acronis to take care of this, is your best option right
now. Screwing around is for when you've got more time. I learned how
to do this stuff, by experimenting, and when you take the time into
account for making mistakes, this isn't a one day learning experience.
So far (knocks on wood), I haven't destroyed any source disks :-)

Paul

On Mar 9, 1:35*am, Paul <nos...@needed.com> wrote:
> rc wrote:
> > Now the computer using the new disk will not boot. The windows XP screen
> > begins and then promptly keeps attempting to restart. *As far as I could
> > tell the migration went ok (solely based on the completion messages/results
> > given by the Acronis software). *I'm assuming the migration would include
> > making the disk bootable???
> > Before I attempted any "cloning" I formatted the new disk and ran ckdskand
> > no errors were reported. *Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> That sounds like you partitioned the disk, and then used Acronis to
> copy just the files across. Perhaps you could use Acronis to just
> make a complete copy of the old C: partition ? That is likely the
> easiest option. I'm not an Acronis user, as I have enough junk
> of one sort and another here, to get the job done.
>
>
> I think getting Acronis to take care of this, is your best option right
> now. Screwing around is for when you've got more time. I learned how
> to do this stuff, by experimenting, and when you take the time into
> account for making mistakes, this isn't a one day learning experience.
> So far (knocks on wood), I haven't destroyed any source disks :-)
>
> * * Paul

On the two occasions I've used Acronis then I cloned the entire C:
drive, not selected files or anything. This worked fine, although it
did take a couple of hours or so to do the cloning, pretty much as
detailed here IIRC:-

http://www.brighthub.com/computing/h...les/16043.aspx

Thanks. I'll give it a try. Another question....can it be a compatibility
problem? Also, how would I know? I was using a 20GB, WDCWD200BB-75DEA0 and
trying to migrate to 80GB Hitachi (HDS728080PLAT20).
Additional note** The last time I tried to format the new hard drive I
received a message at the very end that "Windows was unable to complete
format". thanks again
"Paul" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:hn48lm$jk9$(E-Mail Removed)...
> rc wrote:
>> Now the computer using the new disk will not boot. The windows XP screen
>> begins and then promptly keeps attempting to restart. As far as I could
>> tell the migration went ok (solely based on the completion
>> messages/results given by the Acronis software). I'm assuming the
>> migration would include making the disk bootable???
>> Before I attempted any "cloning" I formatted the new disk and ran ckdsk
>> and no errors were reported. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> That sounds like you partitioned the disk, and then used Acronis to
> copy just the files across. Perhaps you could use Acronis to just
> make a complete copy of the old C: partition ? That is likely the
> easiest option. I'm not an Acronis user, as I have enough junk
> of one sort and another here, to get the job done.
>
> *******
>
> When I've done that (just copy files from old partition, to newly
> prepared formatted partition), the bit that is missing is the boot
> sectors. A program like Robocopy (Microsoft) can be used to copy files
> and preserve permissions and so on. But it doesn't copy the boot sectors.
>
> The boot sectors can be put back, by using the Recovery Console and
> "fixboot".
> You take a WinXP installer CD, boot that, and select Recovery Console.
> "fixboot" is a command available, once you're running in the Recovery
> Console.
> It isn't clear to me, how you'd get a Recovery Console, if you had a Dell.
>
> "Recovery Console overview"
> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d....mspx?mfr=true
>
> "To install the Recovery Console as a startup option"
> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d....mspx?mfr=true
>
> (List of commands, including fixboot. Fixboot accepts a drive letter, so
> you
> can fix that new disk.)
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314058
>
> So perhaps there is some other option in Acronis. It would be pretty
> silly if it couldn't copy a bootable partition with it. I don't use
> Acronis here. (Copying sector by sector, then using Partition Magic,
> is the way I do it.)
>
> *******
>
> To copy sector by sector, I use "dd" or Disk Dump. There is even a
> port for Windows. If your new disk is bigger than the old disk, you
> can copy the entire disk with one command, like this
>
> dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb
>
> That would copy all the partitions from one disk to another, and
> even copy the MBR in sector 0. The Windows port of "dd", uses
> a different naming convention for disks (the Windows naming conventions),
> but you use the "dd --list" option, to get names for all the disks.
>
> Once the disk is copied, the partitions would be the wrong size.
> By using my copy of Partition Magic, I could resize any partition
> as desired. Since the new disk is bigger than the old, I might resize
> one of the partitions, to use the slack space left on the new disk.
>
> If I wanted to copy just one partition, in the Linux world the partitions
> are numbered. The Windows naming convention also numbers the partitions.
> (Partition0 is the whole disk. Partition1 is just the first partition.)
>
> dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/hdb1
>
> I would first need to make a new entry in the MBR of the output disk.
> I set that up using "fdisk" in Linux, which allows me to define
> primary partitions on a new disk. I suppose I could also do that
> from Disk Management, and save time by not formatting the partition.
> (Since I'm about to replace all the sectors in that partition by doing
> a sector by sector copy.) Then, I can use "dd" to copy the
> sectors.
>
> So it is easy to be a bit more surgical, but the problem remains
> that the partition must be resized after this step is complete.
> There is at least one free package for Windows, that will do
> partition resizing. I have an older copy of Partition Magic, that
> I use once in a while for this, so I haven't needed to use the free
> one. (Since you'd only be using the free partition resizer on your
> new, cloned disk, there is little danger of any permanent damage,
> as you can start over again if it screws up.)
>
> The port of "dd" is here. This runs in a Command (MSDOS) window.
>
> http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
>
> To review the four primary partition entries, if I'm in Windows,
> I can use this. ptedit32 is a free download. This allows me to
> compare the partitions of the source and destination disks, if I
> need to. (I can also do that using "fdisk" in Linux if I wanted.
> It all depends on where I am, as to which I might use.) I use this,
> when I need exact numbers for sizes.
>
> PTEDIT32 for Windows
>
> ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/englis...s/PTEDIT32.zip
>
> PTEDIT32 screenshot
>
> http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/...0-dell-tbl.gif
>
> Basically, what I'd be looking for there, is confirmation that the
> source partition and destination partition, are the same size. So
> there are no "accidents" when using "dd".
>
> "dd" can be used to copy all or a part of something. It takes
> a block size argument, a count argument, and using those arguments
> can make "dd" run about three times faster. The command also accepts
> seek and skip options, for snipping just a section out of a partition
> or a single file. I haven't given any examples of that in the above,
> but I have used seek/skip, when trying to find the metadata on a
> raid array. Since I don't have a disk editor program, I can snip a
> couple meg up near the end of the disk, and then use a regular hex
> editor to look at the data.
>
> *******
>
> I think getting Acronis to take care of this, is your best option right
> now. Screwing around is for when you've got more time. I learned how
> to do this stuff, by experimenting, and when you take the time into
> account for making mistakes, this isn't a one day learning experience.
> So far (knocks on wood), I haven't destroyed any source disks :-)
>
> Paul