The message said, roughly.

You have a RAW drive. Chkdsk will not work with a RAW drive.

This used to be a FAT32 drive that ran winME, and chkdsk used to work
on it. Wha' happened?

Can a HDD go bad just sitting around, like batteries do?


Details:
I haven't used my IBM Thinkpad 600E for a couple years. For the last
3 months I've been searching for the power cord, which should have
been on the floor right next to the computer. Impatient, I took the
drive out of the computer, verrry easy to do, and connected it via a
Rosewill RCW618 SATA/IDE adapter cable, and the directory structure
was there, and some files, and I could copy them, but many files
seemed not to be there, or couldn't be read. I tried .jpg files
especially because it's easy to tell if they "work". Some appeared
quickly, others seemed not to appear at all, and one showed up after
minutes I think, after first only the top quarter of the picture
showed, and I had gone to an entirely different program for ten
minutes, and came back to find the picture fully displayed.

But eventually the "F: drive" dropped off the list of drives in
Windows Explorer!! I could unplug it and plug it back in, but this
time it came and went faster.

So I tried other hardware, a 2 1/2 inch enclosure that I'd never used
before. Again I could see the directory structure, and lists of files
with their lengths, etc. but many were missing.

So even now the drive works a little but chkdsk says it's a RAW drive.

Any suggestions as to how to get my data off.

Thanks a lot.


FTR, I already copied 3 years ago all the .jpg files to another
computer which is backed up. All I really would like is the email t
that I sent and got on a trip I took, since I plan to got there again,
and really only a couple addresses, which I can eventually replace,
but maybe there are things I've forgotten.

mm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> The message said, roughly.

> You have a RAW drive. Chkdsk will not work with a RAW drive.

> This used to be a FAT32 drive that ran winME, and chkdsk used to work
> on it. Wha' happened?

> Can a HDD go bad just sitting around, like batteries do?

Yes. The surface magnetization weakens over time.
Electrolyte capacitors go bad. Lubrication fluid
may leak or go bad. HDDs are unsuitable as a
long-term storage or archival medium.

> Details:
> I haven't used my IBM Thinkpad 600E for a couple years. For the last
> 3 months I've been searching for the power cord, which should have
> been on the floor right next to the computer. Impatient, I took the
> drive out of the computer, verrry easy to do, and connected it via a
> Rosewill RCW618 SATA/IDE adapter cable, and the directory structure
> was there, and some files, and I could copy them, but many files
> seemed not to be there, or couldn't be read. I tried .jpg files
> especially because it's easy to tell if they "work". Some appeared
> quickly, others seemed not to appear at all, and one showed up after
> minutes I think, after first only the top quarter of the picture
> showed, and I had gone to an entirely different program for ten
> minutes, and came back to find the picture fully displayed.
>
> But eventually the "F: drive" dropped off the list of drives in
> Windows Explorer!! I could unplug it and plug it back in, but this
> time it came and went faster.

Sounds like a lot of retries needed to read.

> So I tried other hardware, a 2 1/2 inch enclosure that I'd never used
> before. Again I could see the directory structure, and lists of files
> with their lengths, etc. but many were missing.

> So even now the drive works a little but chkdsk says it's a RAW drive.

Chkdsk, like many other MS "tools" is of atrocously bad
quality. Ignore whatever it sais, it is misleading.

> Any suggestions as to how to get my data off.

> Thanks a lot.

> FTR, I already copied 3 years ago all the .jpg files to another
> computer which is backed up. All I really would like is the email t
> that I sent and got on a trip I took, since I plan to got there again,
> and really only a couple addresses, which I can eventually replace,
> but maybe there are things I've forgotten.

Ordinarily, I would suggest professional data recovery from a
reputable (!) outfit. (Lots of fraudulent and incompetent
ones out there...).

In this case, locate the specific files, and try to copy them
a dozend times or so. If that does not work, then professional
data recovery is the only chance and it is a slim or really
expensive (>> 1000 EUR/USD) one.

But quite frankly, your chances are slim. Better prepare to
deal with not getting this data and think about what to do
differently next time.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

mm wrote:

> The message said, roughly.

> You have a RAW drive. Chkdsk will not work with a RAW drive.

> This used to be a FAT32 drive that ran winME,
> and chkdsk used to work on it. Wha' happened?

Someth8ing got corrupted in the directory structures.

> Can a HDD go bad just sitting around,

Yes.

> like batteries do?

Nothing like the effect with batterys.

You can get a semiconductor failure or the failure
of a pcb trace or dry joint just sitting around.

> Details:
> I haven't used my IBM Thinkpad 600E for a couple years. For the last
> 3 months I've been searching for the power cord, which should have
> been on the floor right next to the computer. Impatient, I took the
> drive out of the computer, verrry easy to do, and connected it via a
> Rosewill RCW618 SATA/IDE adapter cable, and the directory structure
> was there, and some files, and I could copy them, but many files
> seemed not to be there, or couldn't be read. I tried .jpg files
> especially because it's easy to tell if they "work". Some appeared
> quickly, others seemed not to appear at all, and one showed up after
> minutes I think, after first only the top quarter of the picture
> showed, and I had gone to an entirely different program for ten
> minutes, and came back to find the picture fully displayed.

Thats evidence that the drive is having problems reading the sectors.

> But eventually the "F: drive" dropped off the list of drives in Windows Explorer!!

Because the drive has a warmup fault.

> I could unplug it and plug it back in, but this time it came and went faster.

> So I tried other hardware, a 2 1/2 inch enclosure that I'd never
> used before. Again I could see the directory structure, and
> lists of files with their lengths, etc. but many were missing.

> So even now the drive works a little but chkdsk says it's a RAW drive.

Because the corruption has involved the directory structures now.

> Any suggestions as to how to get my data off.

You may find that putting the drive in a plastic bag and putting it in
the freezer will allow you to get the data off the drive quickly before
it warms up. You may have corrupted the directory structures too
much now and you may find that is not visible to Win again.

> Thanks a lot.

> FTR, I already copied 3 years ago all the .jpg files to another
> computer which is backed up. All I really would like is the email t
> that I sent and got on a trip I took, since I plan to got there again,
> and really only a couple addresses, which I can eventually replace,
> but maybe there are things I've forgotten.

Try freezing the drive.

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:54:33 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>mm wrote:
>
>> The message said, roughly.
>
>> You have a RAW drive. Chkdsk will not work with a RAW drive.
>
>> This used to be a FAT32 drive that ran winME,
>> and chkdsk used to work on it. Wha' happened?

Thank you, Arno and Rod for replying.

>Someth8ing got corrupted in the directory structures.
>
>> Can a HDD go bad just sitting around,
>
>Yes.
>
>> like batteries do?
>
>Nothing like the effect with batterys.

I was sort of kidding.
>
>You can get a semiconductor failure or the failure
>of a pcb trace or dry joint just sitting around.
>
>> Details:
>> I haven't used my IBM Thinkpad 600E for a couple years. For the last
>> 3 months I've been searching for the power cord, which should have
>> been on the floor right next to the computer. Impatient, I took the
>> drive out of the computer, verrry easy to do, and connected it via a
>> Rosewill RCW618 SATA/IDE adapter cable, and the directory structure
>> was there, and some files, and I could copy them, but many files
>> seemed not to be there, or couldn't be read. I tried .jpg files
>> especially because it's easy to tell if they "work". Some appeared
>> quickly, others seemed not to appear at all, and one showed up after
>> minutes I think, after first only the top quarter of the picture
>> showed, and I had gone to an entirely different program for ten
>> minutes, and came back to find the picture fully displayed.
>
>Thats evidence that the drive is having problems reading the sectors.

Okay.

>> But eventually the "F: drive" dropped off the list of drives in Windows Explorer!!
>
>Because the drive has a warmup fault.

Okay!!
>
>> I could unplug it and plug it back in, but this time it came and went faster.
>
>> So I tried other hardware, a 2 1/2 inch enclosure that I'd never
>> used before. Again I could see the directory structure, and
>> lists of files with their lengths, etc. but many were missing.
>
>> So even now the drive works a little but chkdsk says it's a RAW drive.
>
>Because the corruption has involved the directory structures now.
>
>> Any suggestions as to how to get my data off.
>
>You may find that putting the drive in a plastic bag and putting it in
>the freezer will allow you to get the data off the drive quickly before
>it warms up. You may have corrupted the directory structures too
>much now and you may find that is not visible to Win again.

Well, that's a great idea and it's still worth a try.
>
>> Thanks a lot.
>
>> FTR, I already copied 3 years ago all the .jpg files to another
>> computer which is backed up. All I really would like is the email t
>> that I sent and got on a trip I took, since I plan to got there again,
>> and really only a couple addresses, which I can eventually replace,
>> but maybe there are things I've forgotten.
>
>Try freezing the drive.

Maybe after the freezer I can even put it in a little cooler or a
couple layers of thick paper bag with some blue-ice or something that
will keep it cool longer. (wrapped to keep condensation away from the
drive.) OTOH, I've narrowed it down to only 2 or 3 files I really
want, which should go quickly.

I'll try this tomorrow. Thanks a lot.


FTR 've narrowed it down to two basic files that I really want, the
Outbox and the Address book. And I've found a few of the addresses
in the inbox, when they wrote back to me.

I found everything from the Inbox on my regular desktop computer,
because I didn't delete anyting from the server when using the
laptop, so it would all go to my desktop too when I got home. Next
time, from now on whenever I use a laptop, I'll send a copy to myself
of everything I send.

> Maybe after the freezer I can even put it in a little cooler or a
> couple layers of thick paper bag with some blue-ice or something that
> will keep it cool longer. (wrapped to keep condensation away from the
> drive.) OTOH, I've narrowed it down to only 2 or 3 files I really
> want, which should go quickly.

Be careful of condensation when you take the drive out of the freezer! I
would not recommend this.


--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.36.2
^ ^ 23:56:01 up 4 days 6:01 1 user load average: 1.04 1.04 1.00
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 00:06:45 +0800, Man-wai Chang
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>> Maybe after the freezer I can even put it in a little cooler or a
>> couple layers of thick paper bag with some blue-ice or something that
>> will keep it cool longer. (wrapped to keep condensation away from the
>> drive.) OTOH, I've narrowed it down to only 2 or 3 files I really
>> want, which should go quickly.
>
>Be careful of condensation when you take the drive out of the freezer! I
>would not recommend this.

Thanks for the warning. At this point I have nothing to lose**.

My memory is not what it used to be in two ways.

1) Late last night I realized I had known about this method 10 or 15
years ago, but forgot. Just now I realized I think I used it once and
it worked. (and still I forgot about it!) I'm glad Rod reminded me.

2) In the opposite direction, late last night doing general file
maintenance, I came across an xxcopy log file for this very computer,
where I copied 4 gigs to the F: drive. Now I just have to find this
F: drive! It might be a spare drive in an usb external enclosure. I
have two of these but don't use them anymore.

I won't have time to look, or to chill my drive, until tomorrow.

**I also forgot to say that -- I don't know if this has anything to do
with it, but in a reversion from 60 years old to teenage, I used the
laptop 3 years ago to crack open a pistachio nut, while it wss
running. Not hitting the nut but squeezing it against the table. The
nut went flying across the room and I never found it. The computer
worked fine until I tried to restart it. Then I had to run chkdsk for
60 hours, about 5 or 10 minutes for each error it found, until it
worked again. Something like 500 bad sectors out of a million. (The
numbers don't add up but I've forgotten the details of this too.)
After that, I used the computer for about 30 hours over 3 months and
everything worked fine.

Then I stopped using it until I couldnt' find the cord and took the
harddrive out this week. I don't know if the earler crash I created
was responsible for the failure this week or not.

Thanks all

> with it, but in a reversion from 60 years old to teenage, I used the
> laptop 3 years ago to crack open a pistachio nut, while it wss
> running. Not hitting the nut but squeezing it against the table. The
> nut went flying across the room and I never found it. The computer
> worked fine until I tried to restart it. Then I had to run chkdsk for

What a way of killing a hard disk! Some hard disks could take 300 G
(gravity) when powered off. Not sure about the one in your notebook!

--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.36.2
^ ^ 00:26:01 up 4 days 6:31 1 user load average: 1.00 1.01 1.00
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

mm wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 00:06:45 +0800, Man-wai Chang
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>> Maybe after the freezer I can even put it in a little cooler or a
>>> couple layers of thick paper bag with some blue-ice or something
>>> that will keep it cool longer. (wrapped to keep condensation away
>>> from the drive.) OTOH, I've narrowed it down to only 2 or 3 files I
>>> really want, which should go quickly.
>>
>> Be careful of condensation when you take the drive out of the
>> freezer! I would not recommend this.
>
> Thanks for the warning. At this point I have nothing to lose**.
>
> My memory is not what it used to be in two ways.
>
> 1) Late last night I realized I had known about this method 10 or 15
> years ago, but forgot. Just now I realized I think I used it once and
> it worked. (and still I forgot about it!) I'm glad Rod reminded me.
>
> 2) In the opposite direction, late last night doing general file
> maintenance, I came across an xxcopy log file for this very computer,
> where I copied 4 gigs to the F: drive. Now I just have to find this
> F: drive! It might be a spare drive in an usb external enclosure. I
> have two of these but don't use them anymore.
>
> I won't have time to look, or to chill my drive, until tomorrow.
>
> **I also forgot to say that -- I don't know if this has anything to do
> with it, but in a reversion from 60 years old to teenage, I used the
> laptop 3 years ago to crack open a pistachio nut, while it wss
> running. Not hitting the nut but squeezing it against the table. The
> nut went flying across the room and I never found it. The computer
> worked fine until I tried to restart it. Then I had to run chkdsk for
> 60 hours, about 5 or 10 minutes for each error it found, until it
> worked again. Something like 500 bad sectors out of a million. (The
> numbers don't add up but I've forgotten the details of this too.)
> After that, I used the computer for about 30 hours over 3 months and
> everything worked fine.
>
> Then I stopped using it until I couldnt' find the cord and took the
> harddrive out this week. I don't know if the earler crash I created
> was responsible for the failure this week or not.

More likely it was just a coincidence that the bads developed
at about the same time that you used it on the nut.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:27:41 -0500, mm <(E-Mail Removed)> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

>The message said, roughly.
>
>You have a RAW drive. Chkdsk will not work with a RAW drive.
>
>This used to be a FAT32 drive that ran winME, and chkdsk used to work
>on it. Wha' happened?

You need to clone your drive ASAP, sector by sector, and then use data
recovery software on your clone, if necessary.

Some freeware cloning tools are ...

HDclone: http://www.miray.de/products/sat.hdclone.html
dd_rescue: http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/ddrescue/
ddrescue: http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/ddrescue.html

Comparison between ddrescue and dd_rescue:
http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Ddrescue

ddrescue can perform multipass cloning. It clones the easy sectors on
the first pass, and attempts the more difficult ones on subsequent
passes. It can also clone your drive in reverse, thereby disabling
lookahead caching. Ddrescue maintains a log, which means it can resume
after an interruption, such as when your drive hangs or goes AWOL.

Cloning tools such as Acronis do not understand how to work around bad
sectors. This makes them effectively useless. Don't be tempted to use
CHKDSK in repair mode. It will most likely exacerbate the file system
damage.

More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ddrescu...variants_of_dd
http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/Damaged_Hard_Disk

The following is a GNU ddrescue example from Wikipedia:

# first, grab most of the error-free areas in a hurry:

ddrescue -n /dev/old_disk /dev/new_disk rescued.log

# then try to recover as much of the dicey areas as possible:

ddrescue -r 1 /dev/old_disk /dev/new_disk rescued.log

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

mm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[...]
> **I also forgot to say that -- I don't know if this has anything to do
> with it, but in a reversion from 60 years old to teenage, I used the
> laptop 3 years ago to crack open a pistachio nut, while it wss
> running. Not hitting the nut but squeezing it against the table. The
> nut went flying across the room and I never found it. The computer
> worked fine until I tried to restart it. Then I had to run chkdsk for
> 60 hours, about 5 or 10 minutes for each error it found, until it
> worked again. Something like 500 bad sectors out of a million. (The
> numbers don't add up but I've forgotten the details of this too.)
> After that, I used the computer for about 30 hours over 3 months and
> everything worked fine.

> Then I stopped using it until I couldnt' find the cord and took the
> harddrive out this week. I don't know if the earler crash I created
> was responsible for the failure this week or not.

Wups, sounds likely. If you got a large number of defects, then
you damaged the head assembly, no other way to get that outcome
from mechanical shock.

Personal rule-of-thumb: Treat a running HDD like a raw egg,
only more careful, because cleaning up when it breaks is a whole
lot more messy.

Arno

--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans