Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
(all from NewEgg):

Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
CD bunrner - Lite On $29
DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
-----
$399.50 (pretty close to target

The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

Comments?

--
Keith

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
you stick with PC2700 memory. I don't know if it was just the
particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
integrated video.

Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
Windows land this shouldn't be an issue. However what WAS an issue I
ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
get the drivers working properly on this system.


In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
then you're pretty limited.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
quality case isn't a bad idea).

As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
quality stuff either.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, hilla_nospam_
(E-Mail Removed) says...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
> >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
> >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.
>
> Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
> with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
> can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
> The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
> you stick with PC2700 memory.

I chose PC2700 memory to match the processor's FSB. Crucial lists all
varieties (PC2100/2700/3200/4000) as compatible,though decided not to
go with them because of cost (I'd spend the $10 difference, but..)

> I don't know if it was just the
> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
> integrated video.

The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
memory is pretty amazing though.

In what other ways is the video "picky"?

> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.

Win98 (I have a license "left over").

> However what WAS an issue I
> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
> get the drivers working properly on this system.

It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
the effort, particularly given your input here.
>
> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
> then you're pretty limited.

"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)
>
> >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
> >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
> >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
> >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
> >(all from NewEgg):
> >
> >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
> >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
> >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
> >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
> >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
> >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
> >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> > -----
> > $399.50 (pretty close to target
> >
> >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
> >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
> >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
> >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
> >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).
>
> You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
> buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
> often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
> a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
> they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
> rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
> quality case isn't a bad idea).

Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
> quality stuff either.

Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and
sold through NewEgg (one stop shopping). Worth some thought though.
Maybe I'll take a flier on bottom-feeding memory and hope NewEgg stands
behind it, at least up-front.

Thanks for the input.

--
Keith

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:07:21 -0400, Keith R. Williams <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
>
>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, hilla_nospam_
>(E-Mail Removed) says...
>> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> I don't know if it was just the
>> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
>> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
>> integrated video.
>
>The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
>look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
>memory is pretty amazing though.

Yup, that one kind of blew me away. It didn't play nice with my
PC2100 memory either, despite the fact that I was running at a
133/266MHz bus speed processor.

>In what other ways is the video "picky"?

Well, for the brief bit that I had it running in Windows the drivers
were being a bit uncooperative, though that may have been more related
to the problems I was having installing overtop of a previous install.

>> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
>> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
>> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Win98 (I have a license "left over").
>
>> However what WAS an issue I
>> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
>> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
>> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
>> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
>> get the drivers working properly on this system.
>
>It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
>to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
>the effort, particularly given your input here.

Good plan!
>
>> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
>> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
>> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
>> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
>> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
>> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
>> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
>> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
>> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
>> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
>> then you're pretty limited.
>
>"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
>clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)

Hehe, yeah, I have to say that it's not exactly a name that inspires
confidence. FWIW it's not quite PCChips stuff, it's actually an Asus
brand name but with all production outsourced to ECS. Of course,
given that ECS also fabs PCChips boards I wouldn't be surprised if
there were some similarities between the designs.

>Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
>around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
>and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

Well that's what ya get for living in the middle of nowhere! :>

>> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
>> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
>> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
>> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
>> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
>> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
>> quality stuff either.
>
>Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and

Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

Tony Hill <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
worked great and it's also very competitively priced.

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.

Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time for a
few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as smooth.

The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on the
drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy partition+format
utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$ one. Symantec
Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot records? - and I
had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:-)

>Comments?

Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:-), never liked Abit but I
have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given their
popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the SX635BII
case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41. the price
is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than their
Chenming jobs but should be OK - let us know how you get on with the build
on it. Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:-)

On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've seen
is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not been
running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible for some
systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to get it to
run. Here's an interesting note:
http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead of
Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows it as
running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if that's
chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD. It's recommended by MSI
for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since Kingmax is located in
Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away from some of the mbrd
makers. The only thing I don't like about it is the chip source is
obliterated with their own logo.

Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.
>
> I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
> full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
> at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
> more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
> at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
> within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
> mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.

I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
$400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.
[*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
my USR external modems.

> Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
> chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
> 2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time
> for a few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as
> smooth.

That's what I'm hopeing. Again, I have a Win98 license or two I've never
used. I'd like to go XP for her, but the budget doesn't allow such things.

> The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on
> the drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy
> partition+format utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$
> one. Symantec Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot
> records? - and I had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.


Well... The proposal I gave her was a WD drive, to save another $10 or
so. There are many things I'd do differently (Crucial is one), but...

>>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two
>>drives, and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where
>>that's comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what
>>one can put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here
>>a long- unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).
>
> I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
> nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
> for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:-)

Well, Tony's suggestion of the Asus board, and some skimping on
the wish-list elsewhere, allowed at least the option of 2x256MB. From
what I can tell on the web, the board only has two DIMM slots and it's a
dual-channel board, so it's now or never. A DVD-ROM can always be added
later, for the price of a ham sandwitch. That's what I'm suggesting,
anyway.

>>Comments?
>
> Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
> his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:-), never liked Abit but
> I have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given
> their popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world" as
his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for my
son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?) years
ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to several
others in the museum (moseleum .

> I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
> SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41.
> the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than
> their Chenming jobs but should be OK -

I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive I
have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables. :-(
I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from the
InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when the
snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).

> let us know how you get on with the build on it.

Sure, but I hope the story is boring!

> Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:-)

Actually, I was thinking about that. ...for a picosecond or ten
(actually spent all day trying to find 10ps - ah, Monday's another day!).

> On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
> seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
> been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
> for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to
> get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
> http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(

> On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead
> of Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows
> it as running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if
> that's chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD.

....the same problem I had years ago trying to figure out if
boards/chipsets supported ECC. Sure it works, but does it *do* anything.

> It's
> recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since
> Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away
> from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't like about it is
> the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.

I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory on
crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this stuff?
Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since KingMax and
a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price. Were it me, I'd
have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no good deed goes
unpunished.

> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
> standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
> same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)

> Good luck with it and keep us posted.

Again, I'm hopeing that it'll be too boring to report here. Other than
my SATA issues with Linux my Opteron system was a rather boring build too.
It just worked.

--
Keith

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:51:32 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Tony Hill <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.
>
> At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
> been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
> work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
> which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
> worked great and it's also very competitively priced.

"Buffalo" was the same price as KVR. Even Crucial isn't really *that*
much higher ($8/256MB stick), when one considers shippping. Me? I pay
the money. In this case it's not my money though; obviously others have
different priorities.

--
Keith

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:16:12 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
>

>I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
>option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
>512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
>$400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.
>
>[*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
>floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
>my USR external modems.

Sounds good - it'll be a helluva system for the $$. Oh BTW, just in case,
I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:-)) which I've only
seen in-store at Comp-USA so far. It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my
criteria, the keys feel very nice and it comes with a rubber wrist rest...
I just ignore the "multi-media" button crap.

>>>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two
>>>drives, and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where
>>>that's comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what
>>>one can put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here
>>>a long- unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).
>>
>> I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
>> nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
>> for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:-)

>> Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
>> his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:-), never liked Abit but
>> I have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given
>> their popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.
>
>I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world" as
>his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for my
>son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?) years
>ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to several
>others in the museum (moseleum .

We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT. The
boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending $$:-)...
though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.

>> I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
>> SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41.
>> the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than
>> their Chenming jobs but should be OK -
>
>I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
>SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
>DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive I
>have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables. :-(
>I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from the
>InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when the
>snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).

Are you running both case exhaust fans in the SX-1040BII? That's the only
real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata regulates the speed of the
case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S, with a special 12V
connector. If you ever need a 2nd P/S or case, you could get a Truepower
and do a swap; if you needed a bare case to do that, the Antecs are made by
Chenming and theirs come with no P/S.

>> On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
>> seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
>> been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
>> for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to
>> get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
>> http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp
>
>Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(

Yep but isn't the Jedec standard 2.5V for DDR-DIMMs? Kingston specs their
HyperX stuff for 2.6V in the Data Sheet and the "UL" parts quote timings
for a 2.7V reference.

>> It's
>> recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since
>> Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away
>> from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't like about it is
>> the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.
>
>I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory on
>crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this stuff?
>Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since KingMax and
>a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price. Were it me, I'd
>have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no good deed goes
>unpunished.

Those TW module makers are coming on pretty strong just now - add in their
"fashion memory" stuff, like the Geil wafer-level chip-scale packaging, and
they are taking market share. So far I've no complaints with the Kingmax
SuperRAM.

>> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
>> standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
>> same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.
>
>ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)

As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which runs
right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install type or
servers.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:17:45 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:16:12 -0400, keith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>
>>I've given her my proposal, which was the Asus board Tony suggested and an
>>option (to fit her budget) of 256MB and a combo CD-R/W and DVD ROM, or
>>512MB and "only" a CD-R/W. Both are within nickels (ok, $15) of her
>>$400[*] target. She's said she'd give me a check this weekend.
>>
>>[*] note that she has a monitor/keyboard/mouse, I'm going to swipe the
>>floppy out of the smoked system ($8.50 issue), and I'm giving her one of
>>my USR external modems.
>
> Sounds good - it'll be a helluva system for the $$.

I was very surprised at what can be had for such small money. Perhaps I
souldn't have been since I bought bigtime-upscale a few months ago for not
hugely more.

> Oh BTW, just in case,
> I finally found a keyboard for $20.+/- that I like and can live with - the
> Memorex MX2760 (yeah, yeah is it dead or is it......?:-)) which I've only
> seen in-store at Comp-USA so far.

She has a keyboard (likely a POS). I'm running short of good[*] ones, so
I guess I'll have to start collecting 'em again. ;-)
[*] good == Model-M (for the newbs here)

> It has USB + PS/2 which was one of my
> criteria, the keys feel very nice and it comes with a rubber wrist
> rest... I just ignore the "multi-media" button crap.

Why USB? I have no interest in USB keyboards. Cameras, sticks, media
readers, sure. I don't understand the purpose behind USB keyboards and
rodents. No wires saved.

<snip>

>>I never liked Abit either, but my information is about as "real world"
>>as his is. Interestingly, I came across a RWT invoice the other day for
>>my son's Soyo board and K7-700(?), we gave him as a gift a few (4?)
>>years ago. Now that K7 is gathering dust on a shelf downstairs, next to
>>several others in the museum (moseleum .
>
> We still have a working PA-2007 in the office which I got from RWT. The
> boss err, shares my Scottish heritage when it comes to spending $$:-)...
> though his actual heritage is untraceable AFAIK.

I gave my PA-2007 away. ...to someone I've never met in person. I'm not
scott, ratehr English (well, my name anyway). No, I like nice things. I
can't stand busting my butt because the boss won't spend a nickel. I get
steamed becasue they bought whatever rodents we wanted (ergonomics, ya'
know) and then are too cheap to buy the batteries.

>>> I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the
>>> SX635BII case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for
>>> $41. the price is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds
>>> lighter than their Chenming jobs but should be OK -
>>
>>I'm rather sorry I didn't buy the "sonata" for my Opteron systeem. The
>>SX-1040BII is rather loud and the ATA cables don't reach the DVD and
>>DVD-RW drives. Since I can't get Linux to play nice with the SATA drive
>>I have to live off the p-ATA drive for now, which "shortens" the cables.
>> :-( I'm really considering a Sonata, and transplanting my K6-III from
>>the InWin Q500 to the Antec 1040. ...sounds like something to do when
>>the snow flies (hibernating sounds good too).
>
> Are you running both case exhaust fans in the SX-1040BII?

Yes.

>That's the only real difference: the Truepower P/S in the Sonata regulates the
> speed of the case fans, according to a thermistor temp in the P/S, with
> a special 12V connector.

The Sonata uses 120mm fans, as opposed to the twin 80's the 1040 uses, no?
I told the CFO that I may order a new case becase I'm not to happy with
this one (cables don't reach to the CD drives is the biggie). I also
thought the Tyan board would do a better job with the fans. I plan on
getting them (the 1040 and Q500) off the desktop where they'll be less
objectionable, but those plans seem to be slipping out big-time (last
chances to work outside, furnace acting up, and drier just kicked a belt
yesterday).

> If you ever need a 2nd P/S or case, you could
> get a Truepower and do a swap; if you needed a bare case to do that, the
> Antecs are made by Chenming and theirs come with no P/S.

Power supplies are just about as expensive as cases (whihg the same PS,
even). My Q500 has a PCP&C "silencer" in it. ...but things do change. ;-)

>>> On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've
>>> seen is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not
>>> been running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible
>>> for some systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V
>>> to get it to run. Here's an interesting note:
>>> http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp
>>
>>Hmmm. Memory should just *work*. :-(
>
> Yep but isn't the Jedec standard 2.5V for DDR-DIMMs? Kingston specs
> their HyperX stuff for 2.6V in the Data Sheet and the "UL" parts quote
> timings for a 2.7V reference.

Excellent point! I hadn't thought about that. I will look further before
I comitt my friend's money (she gave me a check tonight).

>>> It's
>>> recommended by MSI for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe;
>>> since Kingmax is located in Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short
>>> distance away from some of the mbrd makers. The only thing I don't
>>> like about it is the chip source is obliterated with their own logo.
>>
>>I'm not convinced that's much of an issue. I've seen name-brand memory
>>on crap sticks that didn't work. Who knows where they're getting this
>>stuff? Waste-baskets? I think I quoted her Kingston Value RAM, since
>>KingMax and a few others that I didn't recognize were the same price.
>>Were it me, I'd have spent another $20 and gone Crucial, but... OTOH, no
>>good deed goes unpunished.
>
> Those TW module makers are coming on pretty strong just now - add in
> their "fashion memory" stuff, like the Geil wafer-level chip-scale
> packaging, and they are taking market share. So far I've no complaints
> with the Kingmax SuperRAM.

Kingmax was the same price as the rest, so I'll look again. Were it my
money, I'd buy Crucial and blow a few bucks. As it was, I had a rather
strict budget. The Athlon 2400+ (retail) seemed to be the sweet spot.

>>> Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with
>>> the standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but
>>> all the same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.
>>
>>ISTR such an issue too. No biggie, I've been known to use PQMagic. ;-)
>
> As already noted, I gave up with PQMagic - I use BootitNG now which runs
> right off a floppy for any file system, with no blocks on install type
> or servers.

I'll take a look. I'm an *original* PQM buyer. I bought V1.0 when it
only OS/2 (1995?). I like it becasue I can do just about anything with
it and the only time it's "failed" me was when I kicked the power-cord out
when it was doing its thing (wrong time to clean around the computer).

--
Keith