Hi all,

I am actually building my new home computer which will exclusively use
SATA3 hard disks.
For the convenience, I want to have all my hard disks racked.

I read the reviews on NewEgg and most of the recent racks (mostly Icy
Box & Icy Dock) do not have a power off switch.
I know the SATA3 connector is designed to be plug & play but I think
it would be much better is the power could be off while removing the
disk.

In my old computer, I use some Icy Box IB-138SK-B-II SATA2 racks wich
have a mixed lock/power off key but I did not find the equivalent on
new SATA 3 HDD.
These racks work very well and I never met any issues with them (but
they are SATA2 :-().

Here are my questions:

* I found much trayless racks than in the past so what do you think of
them ? Are they as reliable as tray racks (personally, I don't think
so) ?
* Do you thing a hard disk can really be safely removed from the rack
while the power is on ?
* Do you know a robust SATA3 rack model which has a front power off
switch (as far as I am concerned, I did not find one) ?

On 12 sep, 17:08, David Brown <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
wrote:

> I have an external disk "cabinet" (it is open, and has only space for
> one disk) connected by a cable directly to the motherboard's SATA
> interface. *I regularly hot-plug and hot-unplugg devices on it. *I can't
> say for sure if it is the power or the sata cable that disconnects first
> from the disk.

Yes, as far as I am concerned, I have exactly the same system (a power
& e-SATA cords outside of the case) but I only plug a disk I do not
care of.

On 12 sep, 21:06, David Brown <david.br...@removethis.hesbynett.no>
wrote:

> One thing to make sure of is that you are not using the disk when you
> remove it (umount the filesystem(s) for Linux, or use "safe remove" for
> windows).

I am using Windows 7 so that's not a problem because W7 handles hot
swap quite well : the SATA devices are listed with the USB devices and
can be ejected the same way before physical remove.

My main concern is about what happens when the rack and the HDD
connector meet together while the power is on.
I know that electronic components like capacitors does not like it. Of
course, it can work 99% of the times but the remaining 1% will destroy
your drive.

Castor Nageur wrote

> My main concern is about what happens when the rack and
> the HDD connector meet together while the power is on.

The SATA standard has been designed to handle that.

> I know that electronic components like capacitors does not like it.

Thats just plain wrong. The problem is quite a different
one, connecting the supply rails before the ground line.

The SATA connectors are designed so that does not happen.

> Of course, it can work 99% of the times but the remaining 1% will destroy your drive.

Not with SATA drives that have the connector designed to allow a hot swap.

Thats why you cant fine racks that have a power switch, they dont need one.

David Brown wrote
> Castor Nageur wrote
>> David Browndavid.br...@removethis.hesbynett.no> wrote

>>> One thing to make sure of is that you are not using the disk when
>>> you remove it (umount the filesystem(s) for Linux, or use "safe
>>> remove" for windows).

>> I am using Windows 7 so that's not a problem because W7 handles hot swap quite well : the SATA devices are listed
>> with the USB devices and can be ejected the same way before physical remove.

> Again, you have to make sure it is safe to remove the drive

Nope, it handles hot swap fine.

> Win7 does not do that "automagically"

Wrong.

> because it /always/ needs a user to tell when the drive should be stopped for removal.

Wrong.

>> My main concern is about what happens when the rack and the HDD
>> connector meet together while the power is on.

>> I know that electronic components like capacitors does not like it.
>> Of course, it can work 99% of the times but the remaining 1% will
>> destroy your drive.

> It should be safe to hotplug the drives - the SATA standard is designed to support it.

Castor Nageur <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Hi all,

> I am actually building my new home computer which will exclusively use
> SATA3 hard disks.
> For the convenience, I want to have all my hard disks racked.

> I read the reviews on NewEgg and most of the recent racks (mostly Icy
> Box & Icy Dock) do not have a power off switch.
> I know the SATA3 connector is designed to be plug & play but I think
> it would be much better is the power could be off while removing the
> disk.

> In my old computer, I use some Icy Box IB-138SK-B-II SATA2 racks wich
> have a mixed lock/power off key but I did not find the equivalent on
> new SATA 3 HDD.
> These racks work very well and I never met any issues with them (but
> they are SATA2 :-().

> Here are my questions:

> * I found much trayless racks than in the past so what do you think of
> them ? Are they as reliable as tray racks (personally, I don't think
> so) ?
> * Do you thing a hard disk can really be safely removed from the rack
> while the power is on ?

Electrically, absolutely. SATA drives are designed for that.
The way this is done is by longer ground traces. There are
also longer power-traces, but they must be unused or protected
by hotplug-curcuitry. The data-lines are actually insulated with
capacitors and only transfer data-pulses.

Mechanically, you can still damage a disk on hot unplug, especially
if you bump it while it is spinning down. This is where the
power-switch makes things safer. That said, disks have gotten
more robust while spinning and if you are reasonable careful,
you sould not damage them by a hot unplug.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

David Brown <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 12/09/2011 16:46, Castor Nageur wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am actually building my new home computer which will exclusively use
>> SATA3 hard disks.
>> For the convenience, I want to have all my hard disks racked.
>>
>> I read the reviews on NewEgg and most of the recent racks (mostly Icy
>> Box& Icy Dock) do not have a power off switch.
>> I know the SATA3 connector is designed to be plug& play but I think
>> it would be much better is the power could be off while removing the
>> disk.
>>
>> In my old computer, I use some Icy Box IB-138SK-B-II SATA2 racks wich
>> have a mixed lock/power off key but I did not find the equivalent on
>> new SATA 3 HDD.
>> These racks work very well and I never met any issues with them (but
>> they are SATA2 :-().
>>
>> Here are my questions:
>>
>> * I found much trayless racks than in the past so what do you think of
>> them ? Are they as reliable as tray racks (personally, I don't think
>> so) ?
>> * Do you thing a hard disk can really be safely removed from the rack
>> while the power is on ?
>> * Do you know a robust SATA3 rack model which has a front power off
>> switch (as far as I am concerned, I did not find one) ?

> I have an external disk "cabinet" (it is open, and has only space for
> one disk) connected by a cable directly to the motherboard's SATA
> interface. I regularly hot-plug and hot-unplugg devices on it. I can't
> say for sure if it is the power or the sata cable that disconnects first
> from the disk.

It does not matter, the connectors and electrical connector
attackments are designed for this. The only risk I see is
mechanical damage if you unplug a still spinning disk. This
risks should be low if youa re reasonably careful.

Of course, if you inplug a disk while writing to it,
your data will be damaged.

Arno

--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

Castor Nageur <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 12 sep, 21:06, David Brown <david.br...@removethis.hesbynett.no>
> wrote:

>> One thing to make sure of is that you are not using the disk when you
>> remove it (umount the filesystem(s) for Linux, or use "safe remove" for
>> windows).

> I am using Windows 7 so that's not a problem because W7 handles hot
> swap quite well : the SATA devices are listed with the USB devices and
> can be ejected the same way before physical remove.

> My main concern is about what happens when the rack and the HDD
> connector meet together while the power is on.
> I know that electronic components like capacitors does not like it. Of
> course, it can work 99% of the times but the remaining 1% will destroy
> your drive.

Dont't worry, SATA devices are designed for this.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

On 13 sep, 01:11, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Electrically, absolutely. SATA drives are designed for that.
> The way this is done is by longer ground traces. There are
> also longer power-traces, but they must be unused or protected
> by hotplug-curcuitry. The data-lines are actually insulated with
> capacitors and only transfer data-pulses.

Thanks Arno, that's good to know that.

> Mechanically, you can still damage a disk on hot unplug, especially
> if you bump it while it is spinning down. This is where the
> power-switch makes things safer. That said, disks have gotten
> more robust while spinning and if you are reasonable careful,
> you sould not damage them by a hot unplug.

It seemed to me that the disk stopped spinning once ejected from
Windows (I could hear the disk slowing down). I noticed this under
Windows XP but I did not test under Windows 7 so I am going to do it.
If true, it means I just have to wait a few seconds before taking the
disk out.
But I suppose it also depends on the disk brand you are using.
(I have WD Caviar Green EADS disks).

Castor Nageur wrote
> Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote

>> Electrically, absolutely. SATA drives are designed for that.
>> The way this is done is by longer ground traces. There are
>> also longer power-traces, but they must be unused or protected
>> by hotplug-curcuitry. The data-lines are actually insulated with
>> capacitors and only transfer data-pulses.

> Thanks Arno, that's good to know that.

>> Mechanically, you can still damage a disk on hot unplug, especially
>> if you bump it while it is spinning down. This is where the
>> power-switch makes things safer. That said, disks have gotten
>> more robust while spinning and if you are reasonable careful,
>> you sould not damage them by a hot unplug.

> It seemed to me that the disk stopped spinning once ejected from
> Windows (I could hear the disk slowing down). I noticed this under
> Windows XP but I did not test under Windows 7 so I am going to do it.
> If true, it means I just have to wait a few seconds before taking the disk out.

> But I suppose it also depends on the disk brand you are using.

Nope, on the OS and controller.

> (I have WD Caviar Green EADS disks).