I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
(likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.

Is this a cause of harddrive failure?

A common cause?

A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.


FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
dollars to do it the hard way.

FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.

Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?

**Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
power connector looks very small?

Thanks.

On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote:
> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>
> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?

That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite
situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power
supply at the right moment.

> A common cause?
>
> A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.

It is a guess, plain and simple.

> FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
> was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
> dollars to do it the hard way.

Yes, what he's describing is that the onboard electronics of the drive
are fried. But the data might still be on the mechanical portion of the
hard drive, so a circuit board replacement should do the trick to get
the data again. However, the circuit board replacement costs thousands
of dollars, as he's saying.

> FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
> displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
> drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.
>
> Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
> power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
> other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?
>
> **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
> power connector looks very small?

I assume that the repairman already may have tried putting the SATA
drive into another system. But you could try it yourself and put it into
your own system to see if it works there.

Yousuf Khan

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.

> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?

Yes, but only with a cheap PSU that does not have overvoltage
and surge protection. There, basically anything is possible,
including the PSU killing a drive/computer without a mains surge,
just by running amok.

> A common cause?

Cheap PSU: Moderately, especially with above-ground mains
lines and a lightening strike.

Quality PSU: Very, very unlikely. Quality PSUs are known to
occasionally fail on mains surges, but do not produce voltage
spikes on the computer side. They also will switch themselves
off reliably before killing components if their regulator circuitry
fails.

Dell has been known to use cheaper compontnts, but not that
cheap IMO.

Also take into account that a HDD has about a 5% per year (!)
failure rate without any outside influence.

> A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.

Indeed. And if that happens, it typically takes the PSU with it.

> FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
> was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
> dollars to do it the hard way.

Reasonable. But there are a lot of disreputable data-recovery
outfits out there, "somewhere" is not enough to advise on whether
they are crooks or not.

> FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
> displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
> drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.

Entirely reasonable.

> Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
> power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
> other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?

You would need to use a PSU analyzer set-up to be sure. Expensive
and needs considerable knowledge to operate.

I would check the +5V lines (red) and +12V lines (yellow) and
if they have good voltages (+/- 3% of nominal or so) go for it.
If you are afraid of killing more drives, get a new PSU from a
reputable manufaturer (I recommend Enermax, by far the best
quality). But be carefult, DELL cases sometimes do not take
standard PSUs.

> **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
> power connector looks very small?

Other connector on the same wires is best. Direct measurements
on SATA power connectors are not a good idea, to easy to shorten
somethig out.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Yousuf Khan <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote:
>> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
>> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
>> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>>
>> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?

> That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite
> situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power
> supply at the right moment.

That would not kill a drive. All modern HDDs have voltage
sensors and will just shut down if given too low voltages.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: (E-Mail Removed)
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

Arno wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
>> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
>> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>
>> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?
>
> Yes, but only with a cheap PSU that does not have overvoltage
> and surge protection. There, basically anything is possible,
> including the PSU killing a drive/computer without a mains surge,
> just by running amok.
>
>> A common cause?
>
> Cheap PSU: Moderately, especially with above-ground mains
> lines and a lightening strike.
>
> Quality PSU: Very, very unlikely. Quality PSUs are known to
> occasionally fail on mains surges, but do not produce voltage
> spikes on the computer side. They also will switch themselves
> off reliably before killing components if their regulator circuitry
> fails.
>
> Dell has been known to use cheaper compontnts, but not that
> cheap IMO.
>
> Also take into account that a HDD has about a 5% per year (!)
> failure rate without any outside influence.
>
>> A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.
>
> Indeed. And if that happens, it typically takes the PSU with it.
>
>> FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
>> was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
>> dollars to do it the hard way.
>
> Reasonable. But there are a lot of disreputable data-recovery
> outfits out there, "somewhere" is not enough to advise on whether
> they are crooks or not.
>
>> FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
>> displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
>> drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.
>
> Entirely reasonable.
>
>> Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
>> power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
>> other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?
>
> You would need to use a PSU analyzer set-up to be sure. Expensive
> and needs considerable knowledge to operate.
>
> I would check the +5V lines (red) and +12V lines (yellow) and
> if they have good voltages (+/- 3% of nominal or so) go for it.
> If you are afraid of killing more drives, get a new PSU from a
> reputable manufaturer (I recommend Enermax, by far the best
> quality). But be carefult, DELL cases sometimes do not take
> standard PSUs.
>
>> **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
>> power connector looks very small?
>
> Other connector on the same wires is best. Direct measurements
> on SATA power connectors are not a good idea, to easy to shorten
> somethig out.
>
> Arno

Was a surge protector used for this computer?

If not, the user was a fool. Electric supplies are
always oscillating up and down and
need taming by the surge protector.

On 29 Aug 2010 01:49:59 GMT, Arno <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mm <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
>> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
>> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>
>> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?
>
>Yes, but only with a cheap PSU that does not have overvoltage
>and surge protection. There, basically anything is possible,
>including the PSU killing a drive/computer without a mains surge,
>just by running amok.
>
>> A common cause?
>
>Cheap PSU: Moderately, especially with above-ground mains
>lines and a lightening strike.

New York City, East 57th St. No telephone poles for miles. Everything
from the power substation up to the building is below ground.
Everything to the power substation also.

11th story of his apartment building -- Is that good or bad? -- but
the mains are in the center of the building, near the elevators --
Does that help? (His building has the same elevator motors and
relays that were put in when the building was new, around 1935 iirc.
They are beautiful.)

>Quality PSU: Very, very unlikely. Quality PSUs are known to
>occasionally fail on mains surges, but do not produce voltage
>spikes on the computer side. They also will switch themselves
>off reliably before killing components if their regulator circuitry
>fails.
>
>Dell has been known to use cheaper compontnts, but not that
>cheap IMO.
>
>Also take into account that a HDD has about a 5% per year (!)
>failure rate without any outside influence.
>
>> A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.
>
>Indeed. And if that happens, it typically takes the PSU with it.

Well, it still works so far, but it has little load, only the mobo and
the video card. Oh, I said that.
>
>> FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
>> was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
>> dollars to do it the hard way.
>
>Reasonable. But there are a lot of disreputable data-recovery
>outfits out there, "somewhere" is not enough to advise on whether
>they are crooks or not.

He's trusting his repairman. Where he got him I don't know, but
because his wife insisted on living in NY instead of Brooklyn, he
lives in an expensive building. Of course everything on the East
Side north of 23rd or 42nd is expensive, and I don't know if he got
the referral from his neighbors (who have more money than he does) and
of course rich people get ripped off too.

>> FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
>> displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
>> drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.
>
>Entirely reasonable.
>
>> Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
>> power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
>> other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?
>
>You would need to use a PSU analyzer set-up to be sure. Expensive
>and needs considerable knowledge to operate.

Well, forget that.

>I would check the +5V lines (red) and +12V lines (yellow) and
>if they have good voltages (+/- 3% of nominal or so) go for it.
>If you are afraid of killing more drives, get a new PSU from a
>reputable manufaturer (I recommend Enermax, by far the best
>quality). But be carefult, DELL cases sometimes do not take
>standard PSUs.

Ugh. But I'll do my best to measure. And I'll see what Dell sells,
or what is sold in Dell's name, for this model if possible.
>
>> **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
>> power connector looks very small?
>
>Other connector on the same wires is best. Direct measurements
>on SATA power connectors are not a good idea, to easy to shorten
>somethig out.

Yeah. I think there are other connectors on the same wire.

>Arno

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:18:59 -0400, Yousuf Khan
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote:
>> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
>> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
>> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>>
>> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?
>
>That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite
>situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power
>supply at the right moment.
>
>> A common cause?
>>
>> A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman.
>
>It is a guess, plain and simple.
>
>> FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it
>> was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500
>> dollars to do it the hard way.
>
>Yes, what he's describing is that the onboard electronics of the drive
>are fried. But the data might still be on the mechanical portion of the
>hard drive, so a circuit board replacement should do the trick to get
>the data again. However, the circuit board replacement costs thousands
>of dollars, as he's saying.

So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit
board myself??? I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic
repairs including soldering.

FTR I don't have the drive, but I could get it from my friend.

>> FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just
>> displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA
>> drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that.
>>
>> Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive
>> power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do
>> other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea?
>>
>> **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA
>> power connector looks very small?
>
>I assume that the repairman already may have tried putting the SATA
>drive into another system. But you could try it yourself and put it into
>your own system to see if it works there.

Here, I just mean that to test the power supply, I could watch the
voltage on a voltmeter, with a needle, to see if it varies.

> Yousuf Khan

On 28/08/2010 9:51 PM, Arno wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Yousuf Khan<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote:
>>> I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said
>>> that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may
>>> (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply.
>>>
>>> Is this a cause of harddrive failure?
>
>> That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite
>> situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power
>> supply at the right moment.
>
> That would not kill a drive. All modern HDDs have voltage
> sensors and will just shut down if given too low voltages.
>
> Arno

I'm pretty certain a lack of power was what killed one of my old 500GB
drives a few years back. Up until that time, it was working perfectly,
there were no SMART errors, etc. Then one day, I added another hard
drive into the system, and this one just stopped functioning
simultaneously. The only plausible answer is that the PS wasn't putting
enough power out to run all of the drives at the same time.

Yousuf Khan

In message <(E-Mail Removed)> JD <(E-Mail Removed)> was
claimed to have wrote:

>Was a surge protector used for this computer?
>
>If not, the user was a fool. Electric supplies are
>always oscillating up and down and
>need taming by the surge protector.

Surge protectors really aren't needed for modern computers, the PSU
should have far more capable surge protection built-in as part of it's
design.

More often than not a surge protector won't catch a surge in time
anyway, although it will usually do a decent enough job of preventing a
fire if some connected device shorts out.

In message <(E-Mail Removed)> mm
<(E-Mail Removed)> was claimed to have wrote:

>So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit
>board myself??? I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic
>repairs including soldering.

Maybe. Until recently this was usually possible if you could get an
absolutely identical drive, not only the model number but the software
version too in some cases.

However, modern drives are apparently storing some data on the
controller circuitry itself that makes this type of swap out more
difficult.

Still, if the data is worth the gamble, and if it's a bit of an older
drive you might find replacements on eBay cheap, so it's worth trying.