I am looking for some feedback from this group as far as your perception of
the usefulness of Access databases to solving business needs. We are a small
manufacturing company that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
(Enterprise Resource Planning) software system. Although we all recognize
the advantage in having the entire operation modeled in a single software
solution the costs at this time in our history is prohibitive. I have hired
an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing different
Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go. Giving
the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting in
this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
ultimately will be cost prohibitive.

1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
upon for mission critical operations.



I think I understand where an IT professional is coming from but I would
like some

feedback from a group that uses MS Access on a day-to-day basis to solve
these very issues.



Any feedback would be much appreciated.



Ron

After many years in developing industrial-strength database systems (using
mostly Microsoft products), I would agree with your IT professional that
Access is not robust enough for an "all-encompassing ERP" system. SQL Server
is much better suited, but I also would recommend against rolling your own
with that system. Better (and cheaper) to buy and adapt an off-the shelf ERP
system, from somebody like Great Plains, SAP or Peoplesoft (these are just
examples, not product endorsements!)
--
Ted

Access is not an ERP program.

Would agree with all the points your IT consultant makes. Access has its
uses, but it shouldn't be considered for mission-critical work. It functions
best as an ad hoc db solution for a limited number of users.
--
Brevity is the soul of wit.


"Ron" wrote:

> I am looking for some feedback from this group as far as your perception of
> the usefulness of Access databases to solving business needs. We are a small
> manufacturing company that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
> (Enterprise Resource Planning) software system. Although we all recognize
> the advantage in having the entire operation modeled in a single software
> solution the costs at this time in our history is prohibitive. I have hired
> an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing different
> Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go. Giving
> the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting in
> this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
> ultimately will be cost prohibitive.
>
> 1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.
>
> 2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.
>
> 3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
> upon for mission critical operations.
>
>
>
> I think I understand where an IT professional is coming from but I would
> like some
>
> feedback from a group that uses MS Access on a day-to-day basis to solve
> these very issues.
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>

FWIW, wikipedia's entry on Access repeats many of the points your IT
consultant, as well as those of the people responding to this question, make:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms_access
--
Brevity is the soul of wit.


"Ron" wrote:

> I am looking for some feedback from this group as far as your perception of
> the usefulness of Access databases to solving business needs. We are a small
> manufacturing company that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
> (Enterprise Resource Planning) software system. Although we all recognize
> the advantage in having the entire operation modeled in a single software
> solution the costs at this time in our history is prohibitive. I have hired
> an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing different
> Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go. Giving
> the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting in
> this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
> ultimately will be cost prohibitive.
>
> 1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.
>
> 2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.
>
> 3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
> upon for mission critical operations.
>
>
>
> I think I understand where an IT professional is coming from but I would
> like some
>
> feedback from a group that uses MS Access on a day-to-day basis to solve
> these very issues.
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>

> I would agree with your IT professional that
> Access is not robust enough for an "all-encompassing ERP" system. SQL
> Server
> is much better suited

I think it is VERY important to distinguish between the developers tool
(such as ms-access, or vb), and the database engine used.
(sql server).

You do fail to distinguish this, and that does create a issue of confusing.
Ms-access can well scale to 1000+ users at the same time, it is really is a
function of the database engine you use.

the speed of grabbing data from oracle with c++, VB.net, VB6, or ms-access
are ALL THE SAME!!!

So, it not ms-access that does not scale in terms of users, but the JET
database engine, which one would obviously not use for a large mission
critical data store.....

> Better (and cheaper) to buy and adapt an off-the shelf ERP
> system, ...

Now, that makes perfect sense. and I agree.

anyway, it not a big deal, but one does need to distinguish ms-access (the
part to develop the appcation with), and the particular database engine you
"appropriately" choose to use with ms-access. Really, kind of a apples and
oranges issue...


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
(E-Mail Removed)

I certainly am in agreement that Access is not the answer to an "ERP"
solution but how usefull is it to giving those the limited functionality to
help them do their jobs more efficiently. In following these news groups it
certainly appears that many individuals are attempting this. Is there
usfullness there?
"TedMi" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news27811CE-3C40-4908-8600-(E-Mail Removed)...
> After many years in developing industrial-strength database systems (using
> mostly Microsoft products), I would agree with your IT professional that
> Access is not robust enough for an "all-encompassing ERP" system. SQL
Server
> is much better suited, but I also would recommend against rolling your own
> with that system. Better (and cheaper) to buy and adapt an off-the shelf
ERP
> system, from somebody like Great Plains, SAP or Peoplesoft (these are just
> examples, not product endorsements!)
> --
> Ted
>
>

Let me see if I can answer this in a piece meal fashion:

>I have hired
> an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing
different
> Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go.

Since I don't know your business requirements, I can't possibly say if this
is true. By "IT Professional" do you mean a professional database
developer? If not, what is his opinion worth? "IT Professional"
encompasses a huge range of skills.

>Giving
> the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting
in
> this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
> ultimately will be cost prohibitive.

Well, it's you said it's cost prohibitive to buy a system, and he says it's
prohibitive to make individual systems to carry on. Either way, it's cost
prohibitive. What you have to decide is if it's advantageous for your
people to be able to do their jobs NOW. Perhaps you need a phased approach
where you create individual systems to get you by until you can buy an
enterprise system.

> 1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

Access or not, ANY in-house development project will be a maintenance
problem.

> 2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

This is true. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you're
doing it in-house that it will be cheaper. Often it is not. Perhaps I
should say, more often than not, it is not. However, a development project
in Access is often 3 to 4 times quicker and cheaper to build than in
something like VB.

> 3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
> upon for mission critical operations.

Access the database engine? Or Access the development platform? There's a
big difference. The database engine that comes with Access (Jet) does have
its limitations. No one denies that. However, the Access development
environment (hitting a SQL Server database, for example) is perfectly
capable of producing a robust, mission-critical application.

In the end, this is not a technology question. It's a business question.
If you can't afford to buy a professional ERP system, what are you going to
do? Nothing? As I said, perhaps you need to look at developing some small
applications that can tide you over until you can buy a system. If you do,
you should look to the future when you'll want to integrate the data from
these into your new system. If your applications are properly created, this
shouldn't be a problem.

I recommend you get "Database Design for Mere Mortals" by Michael
Hernandez -- you personally -- and read it. This book is more than "how to
design your database" it's more "how to model your business". If you follow
his process, step by step, and ask ALL the questions he tells you to ask,
you will have a REALLY good grasp on how your business works from a data
perspective. This can be useful whether you are designing your own product
or buying another. Many people THINK they understand their business, when
they don't. This book can help you do that.

--
--Roger Carlson
MS Access MVP
www.rogersaccesslibrary.com


"Ron" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> I am looking for some feedback from this group as far as your perception
of
> the usefulness of Access databases to solving business needs. We are a
small
> manufacturing company that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
> (Enterprise Resource Planning) software system. Although we all recognize
> the advantage in having the entire operation modeled in a single software
> solution the costs at this time in our history is prohibitive. I have
hired
> an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing
different
> Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go. Giving
> the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting
in
> this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
> ultimately will be cost prohibitive.
>
> 1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.
>
> 2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.
>
> 3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
> upon for mission critical operations.
>
>
>
> I think I understand where an IT professional is coming from but I would
> like some
>
> feedback from a group that uses MS Access on a day-to-day basis to solve
> these very issues.
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>

> 1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

the above is no more, or less true for most in-house applications. If you
have good developers, and good development practices, then the above is not
a problem. In fact, my experience is that if the target machines are
controlled in terms of what revisions of windows, and services packs etc,
then ms-access is as reliability as any other platform I used. I deployed a
lot of ms-access software to many companies, and my support incidence rates
are lower then virtually all of their other software vendors.

The real issue here is what type of developers you will attract, and at what
level of experience. Note that ms-access can now consume .net web services
(with the soap tool kit add in), and you can also use Visual Source Safe for
source code control, and multi person development of ms-access applications.
However, use of these tools is NOT the norm.

>
> 2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

This is a usually a correct, and is a very powerful argument. I have to
agree. However, once again, this is not a specific ms-access issues as much
as a issue to roll your own, or purchase. But, I do agree with this issue...
It really comes down to what you can afford, MORE importantly what kind of
developer you have. (I can't stress this more...if you need a new office
chair..you just go purchase one.

If you need someone to write you a hit song, you then MUST purchase talent.
So, the BIG PROBLEM with software is that you need to purchase talent. Many
(if not most) businesses will NOT PAY extra for good talent, and try and do
things on the cheap. So, . I mean, if a manufacturing system costs $75,000
to purchase, it likely has 500,000 to 1 million dollars of previous
development cost. Further, that company spend all the time + money figuring
what developers are good and which ones to take off of the team.

So, while $75,000 might sound expensive, you are likely getting 1 million
dollars of software for that price.

So, if you do plain to make a movie, make music, or write software, then you
have to chase talent, and my experience is that MANY small business have not
leaned this lesson. Think of music, or crappie Hollywood movies. Software
is EXACTLY the same. You have to seek out the guys that made the matrix, or
the Spielberg's types. If you can't put aside pride, and accept the concept
of purchasing talent for your business, then don't try and develop software,
or you will wind up with bad piece of software (or music, or
movies..depending on what you are making). Again, I can't stress this
concept more that you must lean to chase talent. Most small business ARE NOT
willing to, or are not used to looking at hiring top talent when it counts
(as I said, you need a fence, or a new desk..just open the yellow pages.
However, if you can find anyone to make you a great hit song, then why not
hire them..and then make the song, and then sell it for millions of
dollars? -- You MUST HAVE the exact same thinking when you embark on
developing software...that means you MUST hire talent. As mentioned, most
businesses get by purchasing tables, fences, or whatever they need, and have
not learned that when you purchasing things like artwork, or things that are
based on talent, then you must purchase first rate talent.

Also, keep in mind when you purchase software, you are receiving much more
then what the cost to develop the software , and thus figure out if you need
all those extra features in that $75,000 product...

> 3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
> upon for mission critical operations.

You can see my other post/response here. ms-access scales to as many users
as your database engine will handle. So, if you are using sql sever, or a
multi-processor Oracle cluster, you have to talk to them in terms of how
many users you can handle, but this is not really a issue, or limitation of
ms-access.

For the most part, ms-access is a ideal solution for small business when you
need custom applications. Here is some examples of custom ms-access
applications being used in the field....

http://accesstips.datamanagementsolutions.biz/apps.htm


-
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
(E-Mail Removed)

Dave F <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Access is not an ERP program.
>
>Would agree with all the points your IT consultant makes. Access has its
>uses, but it shouldn't be considered for mission-critical work. It functions
>best as an ad hoc db solution for a limited number of users.

Oh? I have a former client (I fired them) running an ERP app which I
created. 25 users are in it all day long.

ERP was only a component. As the shop does pressure welding QC is
exceedingly critical.

I was looking at upsizing the backend to SQL Server. But keeping the
FE in Access.

Ad hoc? I respectfully and complete disagree with that comment. I
have apps which have been running some organizations for ten years.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

Dave F <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>FWIW, wikipedia's entry on Access repeats many of the points your IT
>consultant, as well as those of the people responding to this question, make:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms_access

And depending on the bias of the editor I'm sure that's a balanced
entry.

Sorry, but I get my opinions from my personal experiences. Not some
IT consultant who has only been indoctrinated by folks who don't
understand Access strengths and weaknesses.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm