Best Method and/or How To Set Up A Configured and Updated XP Installation?

I would like to once again consider how I might create one CD (or DVD) that
would cleanly install Windows XP with SP2 and include all the current
Windows security and other updates I need, plus all my hardware drivers,
plus my Desktop appearance the way I like it--in one fell-swoop?

Was this called "slipstreaming" or something like that? Is there a
definitive MS or other source article explaining how to create this CD in
detail and how to use it--pros and cons? I would gladly reinstall
applications as I need them if there was a way to easily create a clean
updated and configured XP?

Why would this method be better then creating a backup or image of C:\
after configuring but before installing any unessential applications? If
just making a good backup of C:\ were best would Drive Image be quite
adequate to use to create an image and manage its install?

Does anyone have any comments/thoughts on using Drive Image (or Partition
Magic) since Symantec bought out Power Quest?

Any thing else?

Thank you.

Susan

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Susan wrote:
> Best Method and/or How To Set Up A Configured and Updated XP
> Installation?

Imaging is great for those who need to roll out MANY machines at one time or
someone who is willing to make frequent backups (using imaging) of their
machine and keep many of these. There are problems associated with doing
this and having "one image for all machines" and although there are workable
solutions out there - none of them are 100%.

Unattended install is great for those who want to roll out one or many
machines at one time and want to be insured that not only are they the
same - but the process will work each time. It is slower than imaging -
but is a great addition to having an imaging process as well. As you can
mainatin an upgraded unattended installation and use that to install on any
new machines that come in and be assured you did not *miss* any installation
you need to - then make your image and apply it to all the other identical
machines.

> I would like to once again consider how I might create one CD (or
> DVD) that would cleanly install Windows XP with SP2 and include
> all the current Windows security and other updates I need, plus
> all my hardware drivers, plus my Desktop appearance the way I
> like it--in one fell-swoop?

http://unattended.msfn.org/

> Was this called "slipstreaming" or something like that? Is there a
> definitive MS or other source article explaining how to create this
> CD in detail and how to use it--pros and cons?
> I would gladly reinstall applications as I need them if there was
> a way to easily create a clean updated and configured XP?

See above article. It was called slipstreaming and is now (more officially)
called "integrating". "Easy" is a relative term - dependent highly on your
skill level.

Rather than give you just a little information - I will tell you how to get
the updates, how to integrate them into your own CD, etc.. That way you are
better informed about your options when it comes to the Windows Updates.

Direct Download of Service Pack 2 (SP2) for Windows XP
http://snipurl.com/8bqy

What to Know Before You Download and Install Windows XP Service Pack 2
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/s...hattoknow.mspx

You can download all updates and burn them to CD..

You can download each update manually - based off the KB Article number,
etc. That way you can back it up/burn a CD of them in case you need them or
use them to keep a slipstream/integrated (updated) Windows XP CD.

How to use the Windows Update Catalog
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323166
(In order to use the Windows Update Catalog, you must use IE to get the
patches..)

Windows Update Catalog
http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.co...en/default.asp
(In order to use the Windows Update Catalog, you must use IE to get the
patches..)

Creating an Integrated Installation
http://snipurl.com/el43

Integrate software updates into your Windows installation source files
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/828930

Really customize your CD..
http://unattended.msfn.org/

Produce an up-to-date XP Distibution CD
http://xpcreate.com/

AutoPatcher
http://www.autopatcher.com/

AutoStreamer
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=223562

You can see the critical (security and other) patches released for a given
month using the following:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../ms##-***.mspx

At the end of this line you see "ms##-***.mspx" .. If you simply replace ##
with the two-digit year and the *** with the three character month
abbreviation, you will see the list of "critical" and "important" patches
for that month (since it only happens once a month usually, if you check by
the second Tuesday (wait until afternoon) of each month - you should be
fine) - note that future months will not work.

As an example...

December 2004's patches..
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../ms04-dec.mspx

March 2005's patches..
None released.. so that one will fail...

May 2005's patches..
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../ms05-may.mspx

July 2005's patches..
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../ms05-jul.mspx


Once you get on the page with each month's list of patches.. You can go to
the related KB articles and grab the appropriate files from there.

> Why would this method be better then creating a backup or image of
> C:\ after configuring but before installing any unessential
> applications? If just making a good backup of C:\ were best would
> Drive Image be quite adequate to use to create an image and
> manage its install?

Again - depends on your situation. In general - a clean install is better
than an image merely because you know exactly what you have with a clean
install - because it is a "clean" installation of the OS and your
applications. Where - with an image - it is possibly a clean install - but
it is also the interaction of the user on the system saved.

If this is for your personal backups - sure - an image (frequently made -
multiple "versions" going back a few weeks - in case you were infested by
something and needed to go back further than your latest backup) and a
corresponding backup system might work fine for you. Since the image is
only as good as the day it was made - you should still have a backup system
in place for your files.

How To Use Backup to Back Up Files and Folders on Your Computer
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308422

Yes - you still need some sort of external media to store the results
on, but you could schedule the backup to occur when you are not around,
then burn the resultant data onto CD or DVD or something when you are
(while you do other things!)

Another option that came to my attention as of late:

Cobian Backup
http://www.educ.umu.se/~cobian/cobianbackup.htm

A lot of people have wondered about how to completely backup their system
so that they would not have to go through the trouble of a reinstall..
I'm going to voice my opinion here and say that it would be worthless to
do for MOST people. Unless you plan on periodically updating the image
backup of your system (remaking it) - then by the time you use it
(something goes wrong) - it will be so outdated as to be more trouble than
performing a full install of the operating system and all applications.

Having said my part against it, you can clone/backup your hard drive
completely using many methods - by far the simplest are using disk cloning
applications:

Symantec/Norton Ghost
http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/

Acronis True Image
http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage

BootItT NG
http://terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html

> Does anyone have any comments/thoughts on using Drive Image (or
> Partition Magic) since Symantec bought out Power Quest?

Which one you use is which ever one you are comfortable with. Which ever
one you can utilize and does the job you require. Personal preference and
need based off the features given by each product, cost issues, etc.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

"Shenan Stanley" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>> Best Method and/or How To Set Up A Configured and Updated XP
>> Installation?

>A lot of people have wondered about how to completely backup their system
>so that they would not have to go through the trouble of a reinstall..
>I'm going to voice my opinion here and say that it would be worthless to
>do for MOST people. Unless you plan on periodically updating the image
>backup of your system (remaking it) - then by the time you use it
>(something goes wrong) - it will be so outdated as to be more trouble than
>performing a full install of the operating system and all applications.

By outlining and referencing so much on slipstreaming or integrating I find
it way to complicated to be worthwhile. It would be nice if MS offered
pre-XP SP1 CD owners _including OEM_ post-XP SP2 Update CDs that include
security updates, and new XP features and improvements? That is what I am
after more then anything with this whole integrating business.

>Having said my part against it, you can clone/backup your hard drive
>completely using many methods - by far the simplest are using disk cloning
>applications:
>
> Symantec/Norton Ghost
> http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/
>
> Acronis True Image
> http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage
>
> BootItT NG
> http://terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html

Since MS seems more willing to just let us wallow in the updating
complexities of maybe several years or let us repurchase XP w/ SP2 all over
again, I have to lean now toward just easily making complete backups of
what I have periodically.

Of the three above that you mention would you or anyone like to jump in on
which one you think is easiest to use and most robust?

Although Symantec mentions Partition Magic 8 which is the same version
number I have last from Power Quest it looks like Drive Image 6 that I also
have has become or been integrated into Ghost 10.

My long range intentions in all this (I only have two home computers) is to
format C:, lay out and update a basic XP OS on both machines including
hardware drivers and Office Word on one machine, and then backup each and
save those CDs. Then, continue to periodically backup each computer to
save vital data/pictures/etc. on separate CDs. This will mean (I think)
that if I get things goofed up or bloated I can start over from the
beginning with only adding a few current Windows Updates needed from the
basic imaged CD and add new applications (that would have to be reinstalled
from their install programs) and vital data/pictures as needed from more
recent full backup images.

>Which one you use is which ever one you are comfortable with. Which ever
>one you can utilize and does the job you require. Personal preference and
>need based off the features given by each product, cost issues, etc.

At this point I would lean toward Symantec even though Ghost costs ~$20
more then the others because I am more familiar with their frying pan then
risk jumping into someone else's.

Thanks for helping me think and figure out this process. Any other
thoughts?

--Susan

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<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>Susan wrote:
>>> Best Method and/or How To Set Up A Configured and Updated XP
>>> Installation?


> "Shenan Stanley" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>A lot of people have wondered about how to completely backup their system
>>so that they would not have to go through the trouble of a reinstall..
>>I'm going to voice my opinion here and say that it would be worthless to
>>do for MOST people. Unless you plan on periodically updating the image
>>backup of your system (remaking it) - then by the time you use it
>>(something goes wrong) - it will be so outdated as to be more trouble than
>>performing a full install of the operating system and all applications.
>
> By outlining and referencing so much on slipstreaming or integrating I
> find
> it way to complicated to be worthwhile. It would be nice if MS offered
> pre-XP SP1 CD owners _including OEM_ post-XP SP2 Update CDs that include
> security updates, and new XP features and improvements? That is what I am
> after more then anything with this whole integrating business.
>
>>Having said my part against it, you can clone/backup your hard drive
>>completely using many methods - by far the simplest are using disk cloning
>>applications:
>>
>> Symantec/Norton Ghost
>> http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/
>>
>> Acronis True Image
>> http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage
>>
>> BootItT NG
>> http://terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html
>
> Since MS seems more willing to just let us wallow in the updating
> complexities of maybe several years or let us repurchase XP w/ SP2 all
> over
> again, I have to lean now toward just easily making complete backups of
> what I have periodically.
>
> Of the three above that you mention would you or anyone like to jump in on
> which one you think is easiest to use and most robust?
>
> Although Symantec mentions Partition Magic 8 which is the same version
> number I have last from Power Quest it looks like Drive Image 6 that I
> also
> have has become or been integrated into Ghost 10.
>
> My long range intentions in all this (I only have two home computers) is
> to
> format C:, lay out and update a basic XP OS on both machines including
> hardware drivers and Office Word on one machine, and then backup each and
> save those CDs. Then, continue to periodically backup each computer to
> save vital data/pictures/etc. on separate CDs. This will mean (I think)
> that if I get things goofed up or bloated I can start over from the
> beginning with only adding a few current Windows Updates needed from the
> basic imaged CD and add new applications (that would have to be
> reinstalled
> from their install programs) and vital data/pictures as needed from more
> recent full backup images.
>
>>Which one you use is which ever one you are comfortable with. Which ever
>>one you can utilize and does the job you require. Personal preference and
>>need based off the features given by each product, cost issues, etc.
>
> At this point I would lean toward Symantec even though Ghost costs ~$20
> more then the others because I am more familiar with their frying pan then
> risk jumping into someone else's.
>
> Thanks for helping me think and figure out this process. Any other
> thoughts?
>
> --Susan
>
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Susan:
I'm going to confine my remarks outlining what I consider a comprehensive &
effective backup system for you and most PC users to employ. From the
description of your stated objectives I'm not entirely sure my
recommendation will meet those objectives since I'm not entirely clear I
have a precise understanding of what you're trying to accomplish in the
whole other than creating a basic backup system. Anyway, here it is for what
it's worth.

My basic premise is that you should use a disk imaging program such as
Symantec's Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image to "clone" the contents of
your working hard drive to another hard drive, internal or external. In my
view, for the vast majority of PC users, the most effective backup system
one can employ is using a disk imaging program such as the ones
mentioned) to routinely & systematically back up one's system. The enormous
advantage of "cloning" one's working HD to another HD cannot be
overestimated. For all practical purposes, the resultant "clone" is a
bit-for-bit copy of one's source disk and, again in my view, is a near-ideal
backup system for most users. By creating this "clone" of one's day-to-day
working HD, the user has at hand an exact copy of his or her operating
system, registry/configuration settings, *all* their programs &
applications - in short, *everything* that's on their source disk. What
backup system can be better? And an added crucial advantage is that where
the recipient of the clone is another internal HD, that drive will be
bootable. (While the recipient of the clone can be a USB/Firewire external
HD, that device is not ordinarily bootable in an XP environment, although
its cloned contents can be re:cloned to an internal HD for restoration
purposes should that need arise).

BTW, I should mention that Shenan Stanley and I have decided differing
points of view re the use of disk imaging programs for creating &
maintaining a basic backup system. We had a recent exchange of views on this
subject in this newsgroup which you might be interested in perusing, the
subject of which was "Re: backing up operating system". Most of the comments
I'm making here were also included in my response to Shenan's comments.

The disk imaging programs I've mentioned, i.e., Symantec's Norton Ghost and
Acronis True Image are basically simple to use, relatively fast in carrying
out their disk cloning function and most important in all, effective in
their results. Cloning speed will vary, of course, depending upon the user's
system. Given modern processors and internal HDs, data transfer speed will
be in the range of 800 MB/min to 1.5 GB/min (and up). Cloning to & from a
Firewire/USB external HD will be slower - in the order of 450 MB/min to 800
MB/min.

I am a strong proponent for using the Norton Ghost 2003 disk imaging program
for carrying out the disk-to-disk cloning process. I find that program
superior to the later Norton Ghost programs (versions 9 & 10) in terms of
ease of use for basic disk-to-disk cloning operations. My experience with
the Acronis program (version 8) has been positive as well. If you, or any
reader is interested in seeing step-by-step instructions for using either of
these programs, I'll be glad to post them. I might mention that the Ghost
2003 program is still available from a number of online vendors for
near-trifling sums. I'll be happy to provide their web addresses.

But whatever disk imaging program a user chooses, the point remains that in
my view basic disk-to-disk cloning is a practical, day-in-day-out
near-failsafe backup system for most PC users.
Anna

"Anna" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I am a strong proponent for using the Norton Ghost 2003 disk imaging program
>for carrying out the disk-to-disk cloning process. I find that program
>superior to the later Norton Ghost programs (versions 9 & 10) in terms of
>ease of use for basic disk-to-disk cloning operations. My experience with
>the Acronis program (version 8) has been positive as well. If you, or any
>reader is interested in seeing step-by-step instructions for using either of
>these programs, I'll be glad to post them. I might mention that the Ghost
>2003 program is still available from a number of online vendors for
>near-trifling sums. I'll be happy to provide their web addresses.

Interesting... Would you please elaborate more on what Symantec did to
Ghost following Ghost 2003 that you fault them on? I there any good
features about 10 that you are willing to forgo because of what is missing
or doesn't work as well as Ghost 2003? I'm leaning toward Ghost but since
I haven't used any version of it before I can decide which I would prefer
for my own personal needs.

Thanks.

Susan

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> "Anna" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>I am a strong proponent for using the Norton Ghost 2003 disk imaging
>>program for carrying out the disk-to-disk cloning process. I find that
>>program superior to the later Norton Ghost programs (versions 9 & 10) in
>>terms of ease of use for basic disk-to-disk cloning operations. My
>>experience with the Acronis program (version 8) has been positive as well.
>>If you, or any reader is interested in seeing step-by-step instructions
>>for using either of these programs, I'll be glad to post them. I might
>>mention that the Ghost 2003 program is still available from a number of
>>online vendors for near-trifling sums. I'll be happy to provide their web
>>addresses.


<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Interesting... Would you please elaborate more on what Symantec did to
> Ghost following Ghost 2003 that you fault them on? I there any good
> features about 10 that you are willing to forgo because of what is missing
> or doesn't work as well as Ghost 2003? I'm leaning toward Ghost but since
I haven't used any version of it before I can decide which I would prefer
for my own personal needs.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Susan


Susan:
I prefer the Ghost 2003 version because I find it a more simple &
straightforward program to use for carrying out basic disk-to-disk cloning
operations (as I outlined in my original response to your query) as compared
with Symantec's successor versions 9 & 10. I also prefer to use this disk
imaging program using an easy-to-create Ghost bootable floppy disk or Ghost
bootable CD which is not an available option in versions 9 & 10. I prefer
the portability aspects of using this media as well as its operational
simplicity. But should one prefer to use the Ghost GUI interface with the
2003 version, you are free to do so.

Before I provide you (and others who may be interested) with the detailed
instructions for using the Ghost 2003 disk imaging program to clone the
contents of one HD to another HD, let me make the following points.
1. We use the Ghost 2003 program for one purpose, and only one purpose - and
that is to *directly* clone the contents of one hard drive to another hard
drive. We are not interested in "incremental or scheduled backups", nor are
we interested in creating "disk images" on removable media, e.g., DVDs. Our
sole interest is to create & maintain a near-failsafe backup system for
restoration purposes. We find we can achieve that objective simply &
effectively through basic disk-to-disk cloning.
2. This is *not* complicated business. Using the Ghost 2003 program in an XP
environment in the manner in which I will set forth is a relatively simple &
straightforward exercise.
3. It (nearly) goes without saying, that in order for the cloning process to
be successful, both the source disk (the drive you're cloning from) and the
destination disk (the drive you're cloning to) must be non-defective and
properly connected/configured in your system.
4. The OS that you're cloning must be free from system files corruption and
other malware. ("If you clone garbage, garbage is what you'll get").

Here are step-by-step instructions for creating a Ghost 2003 bootable floppy
disk and then using that floppy disk to clone the contents of your working
HD to another internal or external HD...

You need not be unduly concerned with using this DOS-based media with the
Ghost 2003 program. There are no complicated or exotic DOS commands that you
need to invoke. As a matter of fact, there are *no* DOS or DOS-like commands
to enter. The entire process is simple, straightforward, and quite
effective. Should a user prefer to work with a Ghost bootable CD rather than
the floppy disk, the CD can be easily created from the bootable floppy disk
using one of the common CD burning programs such as the Roxio or Nero
programs. Note that once you create the Ghost bootable floppy disk (or CD),
this media can be used indefinitely to carry out subsequent disk cloning
processes.

Creating the bootable Ghost floppy disk:
1. Install the Ghost 2003 program on your computer. Make sure you're using
the latest "build" - Ghost 2003.793. If not, use Ghost's LiveUpdate feature
to automatically download/install the latest version. It's important that
you use this latest "build".
2. Insert a blank floppy disk (it need not be formatted) and access your
Ghost program.
3. Click on Ghost Utilities.
4. Click on Norton Ghost Boot Wizard.
5. Select Standard Ghost Boot Disk. A dialog box will appear.
a. Select the USB 2.0 Support option (assuming your system has that
capability).
b. Select the Assign DOS drive letters option and click Next.
6. Select the Use PC-DOS option.
7. Complete the process following the screen prompts.
8. Remove floppy and label accordingly.

That's it. Now you have a Ghost bootable floppy disk which you can use to
undertake your cloning operations now and in the future. Now when you want
to clone the contents of one HD to another HD you simply insert the Ghost
bootable floppy disk in your floppy drive and boot up with both drives
connected.

Here's how to perform the cloning operation...
1. With both drives connected, boot up with the Ghost bootable floppy (or
Ghost bootable CD). You'll get an initial Ghost screen that displays
"License agreement warning". Right-arrow (or tab) over to the "Continue
without marking drives" button and press Enter.
2. The "About Norton Ghost" screen appears. Click OK.
3. Right-arrow twice over to the "To Disk" button and press Enter.
4. The next screen will list both your drives - the Drive 1 (source disk)
and Drive 2 (destination disk). MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN Drive 1 IS INDEED
YOUR SOURCE DISK, I.E., THE DISK YOU'RE CLONING *FROM*!
Drive 1 will be highlighted. Press Enter.
5. The next screen will have Drive 2 (destination disk) highlighted. AGAIN,
ENSURE THAT Drive 2 IS YOUR DESTINATION DISK, I.E., THE DISK YOU'RE CLONING
*TO*! Press Enter.
6. The next screen is the "Destination Drive Details" window, and reflects
your ultimate destination disk, i.e., your current Drive 2. Press your Tab
key to highlight the OK button and press Enter.
7. The "Proceed with disk clone?" dialog box will open. Left-arrow over to
the Yes button and press Enter.
8. The cloning process will begin. The data transfer speed will vary
depending upon the speed of your processor and the HDs involved. On a medium
to high-powered system you should get transfer speeds ranging from about 800
MB/min to 1.5 GB/min should you be cloning internal drives. It will be
considerably slower if you're cloning to a USB external HD.
9. After you get the "Clone Completed Successfully" message, left-arrow over
to the Continue button and press Enter.
10. Down-arrow to Quit and press Enter.
11. Click Yes at the "Are you sure you want to quit?" message.
12. Remove the Ghost floppy and shut down the computer.
13. Disconnect your source disk and boot up with the cloned drive. In most
cases (but not always), a Windows "Found New Hardware" message will appear
in the Desktop's Notification Area followed by a "System Settings Change"
message window informing you that new hardware has been found and asks "Do
you want to restart your computer now?" Click Yes.
14. BTW, the reboot of the newly-cloned drive usually takes a longer time
than usual, so one must be patient. On rare occasions the system will fail
to reboot - the system will hang before reaching the Windows XP Welcome
screen. It's a rare occurrence, but you may experience it from time-to-time.
If that does occur, simply use the Ctrl-Alt-Delete keys to reboot.

Assuming you've cloned the contents of your working drive to your second
internal drive, that second drive will be bootable (after disconnecting your
primary one, of course) as indicated above. You also have the option of
cloning your working drive to a USB external hard drive. In that case the
USBEHD is *not* bootable, but you could clone the contents back to your
internal drive for restoration purposes should the need arise.

Just one other point I wish to emphasize with respect to the cloning
operation involving internal drives. Immediately following the cloning
operation and the shutdown of your machine, disconnect your source drive and
boot ONLY to the newly-cloned drive (as indicated in step 13. above). DO NOT
BOOT IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE CLONING OPERATION WITH BOTH DRIVES CONNECTED.
Doing so is likely to cause future boot problems with the cloned drive.
Obviously there is no problem in this area should a USBEHD be involved in
the cloning process since that device is not bootable in an XP environment.

I should add that the Ghost 2003 program can just as easily clone individual
partitions on one HD to another HD as cloning the entire contents of one HD
to another HD. In our case we rarely have need to clone individual
partitions as we usually prefer to clone the contents of the entire drive
instead, but that capability exists should you need it. And it's no more
difficult than cloning the entire contents of one drive to another drive.

I've tried to be as detailed as possible in delineating the steps that need
to be taken in order to carry out a successful disk cloning operation using
the Ghost 2003 program. I trust the information I've provided will be of
some use to you and others who might be thinking about using the Ghost 2003
program for a routine backup system.

In my previous post I mentioned that while the Symantec Ghost 2003 program
has been presumably superseded by later versions, the program is
(fortunately) still available from a number of online vendors. Here are a
few I've come across...

Download only - $4.99
http://www.tekdealers.com/?pg=produc...s&productID=89

$7.95 + 4.95 Shipping
http://www.softwarediner.com/cgi-bin...rchResult.html

$9.75 (includes shipping)
http://www.royaldiscount.com/ghost.html

$15.90 (includes shipping)
http://www.tekdeal.com/cgi-bin/shopp...rchResult.html

$29.00 (includes shipping)
http://www.atomicpark.com/xq/aspx/sy...uctdetail.html
Anna

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:21:30 -0500, "Anna" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


I tried the
http://www.tekdealers.com/?pg=produc...s&productID=89
option.

Being in the UK it seemed the best one because it was download. The
zip code obviously wouldn't work. I invented one that seemed to be
accepted but it couldn't display the next page. I think that shipping
is going to be out of the question.

Can anyone suggest another download option?

Colin