This might be what AMD is using to fill the capacity at Fab 30 while it
converts it to Fab 38.

AMD to make GPUs in Dresden fab
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33320

On 28 Jul 2006 05:27:52 -0700, "bbbl67" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>This might be what AMD is using to fill the capacity at Fab 30 while it
>converts it to Fab 38.
>
>AMD to make GPUs in Dresden fab
>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33320

I doubt that we'll see much, if any, ATI chips produced at AMD fabs
this year, but it only makes sense for AMD to eventually start
building the chips there. My personal guess (based mainly on
gut-instinct) is that they'll start with the motherboard chipsets and
then work out from there. High-end graphics parts are probably at
least a year away from being produced in AMD fabs.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

Tony Hill wrote:
> On 28 Jul 2006 05:27:52 -0700, "bbbl67" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >This might be what AMD is using to fill the capacity at Fab 30 while it
> >converts it to Fab 38.
> >
> >AMD to make GPUs in Dresden fab
> >http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33320
>
> I doubt that we'll see much, if any, ATI chips produced at AMD fabs
> this year, but it only makes sense for AMD to eventually start
> building the chips there. My personal guess (based mainly on
> gut-instinct) is that they'll start with the motherboard chipsets and
> then work out from there. High-end graphics parts are probably at
> least a year away from being produced in AMD fabs.

Two years. ATI has never targeted an SOI process, and they'd need to
start using whatever CAD tools AMD uses internally. That's a pretty
big shift, and it's not something you'd ever do in the middle of a
project...

Considering that GPUs take at least 3 years to design, I think the
earliest that this could happen is 2 years from now (assuming that
there is a design that started 6-12 months ago, and was still in
architectural phase and hadn't done any actual physical stuff).

DK

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> Tony Hill wrote:
> > On 28 Jul 2006 05:27:52 -0700, "bbbl67" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> > >This might be what AMD is using to fill the capacity at Fab 30 while it
> > >converts it to Fab 38.
> > >
> > >AMD to make GPUs in Dresden fab
> > >http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33320
> >
> > I doubt that we'll see much, if any, ATI chips produced at AMD fabs
> > this year, but it only makes sense for AMD to eventually start
> > building the chips there. My personal guess (based mainly on
> > gut-instinct) is that they'll start with the motherboard chipsets and
> > then work out from there. High-end graphics parts are probably at
> > least a year away from being produced in AMD fabs.
>
> Two years. ATI has never targeted an SOI process, and they'd need to
> start using whatever CAD tools AMD uses internally. That's a pretty
> big shift, and it's not something you'd ever do in the middle of a
> project...

There is no law that says ANMD *must* do SOI in Dresden. Even if
they wanted to go with the current process, it's not that big of a
shift, at least for the logic designers. Pick one set of "books"
instead of another. Circuit design is different (presumably AMD
already has the necessary circuits), and processing is different,
but one logic chip looks pretty much like the next.

> Considering that GPUs take at least 3 years to design, I think the
> earliest that this could happen is 2 years from now (assuming that
> there is a design that started 6-12 months ago, and was still in
> architectural phase and hadn't done any actual physical stuff).

It would take less than a year to migrate a design form bulk to a
mature SOI process.

> > Two years. ATI has never targeted an SOI process, and they'd need to
> > start using whatever CAD tools AMD uses internally. That's a pretty
> > big shift, and it's not something you'd ever do in the middle of a
> > project...
>
> There is no law that says ANMD *must* do SOI in Dresden.

Well considering that AMD has stated they will be doing 'copy exact'...

> Even if
> they wanted to go with the current process, it's not that big of a
> shift, at least for the logic designers.

Yes, but if you've already started on any PD, you're going to need to
redo that. I think from a project management standpoint it would be a
pretty bad idea. I would expect that if they wanted to switch over
they would start with designs that haven't done much PD. My rough
estimate is that the design time for a GPU is 3 years, and PD probably
starts after 1 year. After they start PD, I don't think they'd
retarget.

> Pick one set of "books"
> instead of another. Circuit design is different (presumably AMD
> already has the necessary circuits), and processing is different,
> but one logic chip looks pretty much like the next.

AMD has the necessary circuits, but ATI engineers have no experience
with them. That's just asking for trouble, even if you have AMD
circuits guys coaching them along. Delays for CPUs are bad, but for
GPUs they are brutal, since the life time is so much shorter.

> > Considering that GPUs take at least 3 years to design, I think the
> > earliest that this could happen is 2 years from now (assuming that
> > there is a design that started 6-12 months ago, and was still in
> > architectural phase and hadn't done any actual physical stuff).
>
> It would take less than a year to migrate a design form bulk to a
> mature SOI process.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a design that is already in bulk
production? Or do you just mean a taped out bulk design?

DK

On 29 Jul 2006 14:17:45 -0700, "David Kanter" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> My rough
>estimate is that the design time for a GPU is 3 years, and PD probably
>starts after 1 year. After they start PD, I don't think they'd
>retarget.

Why 3 years though? It seems like nVidia and ATI are pushing out new
cores every 12 to 15 months. When nVidia got their asses whopped
during the FX5xxx series (late 02/ early 03), they pretty much took
only about a year to answer with the FX6xxx (Apr 2004), then the
FX7xxx (Jun 2005). It seems that they must necessarily change their
design after their concept with the FX5xxx bombed and that would give
only 2 years at most between that and the 7xxx series.

--
A Lost Angel, fallen from heaven
Lost in dreams, Lost in aspirations,
Lost to the world, Lost to myself

> > My rough
> >estimate is that the design time for a GPU is 3 years, and PD probably
> >starts after 1 year. After they start PD, I don't think they'd
> >retarget.
>
> Why 3 years though? It seems like nVidia and ATI are pushing out new
> cores every 12 to 15 months. When nVidia got their asses whopped
> during the FX5xxx series (late 02/ early 03), they pretty much took
> only about a year to answer with the FX6xxx (Apr 2004), then the
> FX7xxx (Jun 2005). It seems that they must necessarily change their
> design after their concept with the FX5xxx bombed and that would give
> only 2 years at most between that and the 7xxx series.

Why three years? Because that's how long it takes from *start* to
*finish*.

Just because you release a product every 12-15 months doesn't mean it
only takes 12-15 months to design. Think about pipelining...

Intel has been releasing new cores every 2-3 years (Willamette,
Prescott, Conroe), but it is quite well known that design takes 5
years. How can that happen? Multiple design teams. Who says ATI and
Nvidia don't have multiple design teams?

DK

David Kanter wrote:
> Two years. ATI has never targeted an SOI process, and they'd need to
> start using whatever CAD tools AMD uses internally. That's a pretty
> big shift, and it's not something you'd ever do in the middle of a
> project...

I believe that the Xbox360 CPU & GPUs are both produced at Chartered
semiconductor. Although I don't know if they're using SOI or bulk wafers
for these chips, that fab is a SOI fab.

Yousuf Khan

On 28 Jul 2006 05:27:52 -0700, "bbbl67" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>This might be what AMD is using to fill the capacity at Fab 30 while it
>converts it to Fab 38.
>
>AMD to make GPUs in Dresden fab
>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33320

And yet Ruiz was quoted as saying it won't happen.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) says...
> > > Two years. ATI has never targeted an SOI process, and they'd need to
> > > start using whatever CAD tools AMD uses internally. That's a pretty
> > > big shift, and it's not something you'd ever do in the middle of a
> > > project...
> >
> > There is no law that says ANMD *must* do SOI in Dresden.
>
> Well considering that AMD has stated they will be doing 'copy exact'...

One can do bulk CMOS on a line already set up for SOI, is my point.

> > Even if
> > they wanted to go with the current process, it's not that big of a
> > shift, at least for the logic designers.
>
> Yes, but if you've already started on any PD, you're going to need to
> redo that. I think from a project management standpoint it would be a
> pretty bad idea.

This "bad idea" has been done before.

> I would expect that if they wanted to switch over
> they would start with designs that haven't done much PD. My rough
> estimate is that the design time for a GPU is 3 years, and PD probably
> starts after 1 year. After they start PD, I don't think they'd
> retarget.

Have you ever *done* this? Me thinks you're talking though your
hat, again.

> > Pick one set of "books"
> > instead of another. Circuit design is different (presumably AMD
> > already has the necessary circuits), and processing is different,
> > but one logic chip looks pretty much like the next.
>
> AMD has the necessary circuits, but ATI engineers have no experience
> with them. That's just asking for trouble, even if you have AMD
> circuits guys coaching them along. Delays for CPUs are bad, but for
> GPUs they are brutal, since the life time is so much shorter.

One doesn't need "experience" with a circuit to use it. Logic is
logic, fer chrissake. The biggest problem with SOI is getting the
circuit designs right.

> > > Considering that GPUs take at least 3 years to design, I think the
> > > earliest that this could happen is 2 years from now (assuming that
> > > there is a design that started 6-12 months ago, and was still in
> > > architectural phase and hadn't done any actual physical stuff).
> >
> > It would take less than a year to migrate a design form bulk to a
> > mature SOI process.
>
> Can you elaborate? Do you mean a design that is already in bulk
> production? Or do you just mean a taped out bulk design?

Either way. Assuming no silicon (though metal changes may be
necessary) respins for logic errors, to SOI production volumes.
This would include hardware verification and perhaps two passes
(engineering then production) through silicon. The switch may be
transparent for a design already in the pipe, though logic errors
are an issue on a new design.

--
Keith