I think I've done something really silly (

I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the 9800XT
256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the 9800XT is a
256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this is where the
9800 may beat it.

Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?

Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a bit
fuller.

I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which doesn't
incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.

Cheers

Rob

--
Red meat isn't bad for you....Blue, Green fuzzy meat is bad for you.

Dell Dimension 8300 Desktop
P4 3.0GHz
1GB RAM
Windows Vista Ultimate 32Bit
ATI Radeon 9800 XT
Creative SB Audigy 2

"Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>I think I've done something really silly (
>
> I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the
> 9800XT 256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the
> 9800XT is a 256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this is
> where the 9800 may beat it.
>
> Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?
>
> Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a
> bit fuller.
>
> I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
> like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
> Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which doesn't
> incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.

I've done this upgrade (for my son's system) and benchmarked the results in
games and 3Dmark. His system was a Dell Dimension 8200 with a P4 2.6 and
1gig PC800 RDRAM. Performance was increased by 30-45% depending on the game
and bench. He modtly plays all of the HL2 and other Orange Box games. The
difference here was dramatic in terms of looks and speed, even though it is
a 128bit card vs 256bit. The previous card was an ATI 9800 Pro flashed with
an XT BIOS so it's a pretty relevant comparison. There were three major
issues, however...and two are pretty big ones.

1) The Diamond X1650 Pro AGP 256Mb card I ordered for $75 was specifically
ordered as a 256Mb card because it's the only kind Diamond made that came
with DDR3 at 1400Mhz. All of the 512Mb cards, regardless of manufacturer,
are 800Mhz DDR2. Some of the 256Mb cards are DDR2. A 600Mhz difference in
memory speed on a video card is huge, and will reduce the amount of gain.
Will still be better, but not as much

2) Many Dell Dimension 8200/8300 series desktops simply won't function with
an X1650 Pro. You put it in, hook up the extra power lead, and
presto....dead box. I picked up a proper 450W replacement power supply
thinking this was the problem, and exact same thing. Pull the card out,
stick it my wife's Barton 3200 box and works fine with a generic 350W.
Hmmmm...Some digging on Dell forums found similar experiences. Odd, since
the same system had been upgraded to the 9800 Pro from it's original
Geforce2 card. But incurable, nevertheless. So those increased benchmarks I
told you about were from my wife's Barton 3200 box which my son now has. I
built her a new one.

3) The Catalysts past 7.6 or 7.7 are broken for 3D functionality on the AGP
cards. Which was curable (I run the 7.5's) but it was icing on the cake
after the other screwaround.

So yes, it's a good uipgrade for the $$$$. But be aware you may have issues.

"Augustus" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:zVPej.25494$wy2.18539@edtnps90...
>
> "Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>I think I've done something really silly (
>>
>> I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the
>> 9800XT 256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the
>> 9800XT is a 256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this
>> is where the 9800 may beat it.
>>
>> Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?
>>
>> Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a
>> bit fuller.
>>
>> I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
>> like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
>> Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which
>> doesn't incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.
>
> I've done this upgrade (for my son's system) and benchmarked the results
> in games and 3Dmark. His system was a Dell Dimension 8200 with a P4 2.6
> and 1gig PC800 RDRAM. Performance was increased by 30-45% depending on
> the game and bench. He modtly plays all of the HL2 and other Orange Box
> games. The difference here was dramatic in terms of looks and speed, even
> though it is a 128bit card vs 256bit. The previous card was an ATI 9800
> Pro flashed with an XT BIOS so it's a pretty relevant comparison. There
> were three major issues, however...and two are pretty big ones.
>
> 1) The Diamond X1650 Pro AGP 256Mb card I ordered for $75 was specifically
> ordered as a 256Mb card because it's the only kind Diamond made that came
> with DDR3 at 1400Mhz. All of the 512Mb cards, regardless of manufacturer,
> are 800Mhz DDR2. Some of the 256Mb cards are DDR2. A 600Mhz difference in
> memory speed on a video card is huge, and will reduce the amount of gain.
> Will still be better, but not as much
>
> 2) Many Dell Dimension 8200/8300 series desktops simply won't function
> with an X1650 Pro. You put it in, hook up the extra power lead, and
> presto....dead box. I picked up a proper 450W replacement power supply
> thinking this was the problem, and exact same thing. Pull the card out,
> stick it my wife's Barton 3200 box and works fine with a generic 350W.
> Hmmmm...Some digging on Dell forums found similar experiences. Odd, since
> the same system had been upgraded to the 9800 Pro from it's original
> Geforce2 card. But incurable, nevertheless. So those increased benchmarks
> I told you about were from my wife's Barton 3200 box which my son now has.
> I built her a new one.
>
> 3) The Catalysts past 7.6 or 7.7 are broken for 3D functionality on the
> AGP cards. Which was curable (I run the 7.5's) but it was icing on the
> cake after the other screwaround.
>
> So yes, it's a good uipgrade for the $$$$. But be aware you may have
> issues.
>
>
>

Hey,

Thanks for the heads-up. Ok good to know that I'll get some sort of gain
with the new card. I'm not going to be playing the latest games with it
(leave all that to the Xbox 360).

I've never ever had problems with any of the ATI drivers (currently running
latest CAT 7.12's) on the 9800XT card. Hopefully I can just fit the new card
and reinstall 7.12, I've heard other ppl run these with no problems at all,
but I've also heard the opposite, so I'll keep you posted with regards to
any issues.

I'm more worried about the PSU though. I've posted similar concerns on Dell
NG and a very reliable source tells me the X1650 will run perfectly ok with
Dell OEM PSU. Call me Mr. Skeptical but I've earmarked a 570W PSU from
Maplin's which I'll pick up this weekend. I'm going to fit the new card
first just to see what happens (they assure me nothing will get fried!) the
worse that could happen is that the PC just won't boot up.

I'm saving for the X1950Pro anyway (should have it in a couple of months) so
either way I've GOT to get the new PSU. I just hope it fits into the box and
all connections are ok. Again I'm assured that Dimension 8300 uses standard
ATX connectors. No crappy Dell proprietary stuff.

If I need to revert back to CAT 7.5's, where can I get 'em?

Cheers

Rob

--
Red meat isn't bad for you....Blue, Green fuzzy meat is bad for you.

Dell Dimension 8300 Desktop
P4 3.0GHz
1GB RAM
Windows Vista Ultimate 32Bit
ATI Radeon 9800 XT
Creative SB Audigy 2

"Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> I'm more worried about the PSU though. I've posted similar concerns on
Dell
> NG and a very reliable source tells me the X1650 will run perfectly ok
with
> Dell OEM PSU. Call me Mr. Skeptical but I've earmarked a 570W PSU from
> Maplin's which I'll pick up this weekend. I'm going to fit the new card
> first just to see what happens (they assure me nothing will get fried!)
the
> worse that could happen is that the PC just won't boot up.
>
> I'm saving for the X1950Pro anyway (should have it in a couple of months)
so
> either way I've GOT to get the new PSU. I just hope it fits into the box
and
> all connections are ok. Again I'm assured that Dimension 8300 uses
standard
> ATX connectors. No crappy Dell proprietary stuff.
>

I'd be concerned about the Dell supply too. Unless you have quite a bit more
equipment(say hard and optical dis(c/k) drives) than the average user this
is way more real power than you need. A no name supply may only put out the
amount of power needed but buying a name brand supply of an appropriate size
will give you circuit protection and better efficiency. Do the same kind of
research on the supply you would for the video card. A crap supply is much
the same as building a house on a crap foundation.

Here's places to start.

http://www.journeysystems.com/?powercalc

http://www.extreme.outervision.com/index.jsp

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:05:07 -0000, "Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I think I've done something really silly (
>
>I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the 9800XT
>256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the 9800XT is a
>256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this is where the
>9800 may beat it.
>
>Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?
>
>Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a bit
>fuller.
>
>I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
>like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
>Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which doesn't
>incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.
>
>Cheers
>
>Rob

I just went from 9800XT to X1950 Pro 512meg and the increase in
performance was massive...

I'm able to play Bioshock and COD4 on high settings....

--
The Zero ST

I think Dell kept the same model numbers through several platform changes.
http://support.dell.com/support/edoc...0/sm/specs.htm
The latest Dimension 8300 uses the i875P chipset with DDR333 or DDR400 RAM,
so it is a couple generations newer than the i820/i850 boards that used
RDRAM. In fact the i875P is probably the most compatible AGP chipset
available. The other caveats you listed still apply, but I think the X1650
Pro will function in Rob's machine.

To make matters more interesting, the X1650 XT draws less power than the
9800XT (55 W vs. 60 W), so a lower-powered X1650 Pro *should* not require a
PSU upgrade.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...x1650xt_4.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...wercons_7.html

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

"Augustus" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:zVPej.25494$wy2.18539@edtnps90...
> I've done this upgrade (for my son's system) and benchmarked the results
> in games and 3Dmark. His system was a Dell Dimension 8200 with a P4 2.6
> and 1gig PC800 RDRAM. Performance was increased by 30-45% depending on
> the game and bench. He modtly plays all of the HL2 and other Orange Box
> games. The difference here was dramatic in terms of looks and speed, even
> though it is a 128bit card vs 256bit. The previous card was an ATI 9800
> Pro flashed with an XT BIOS so it's a pretty relevant comparison. There
> were three major issues, however...and two are pretty big ones.
....
> 2) Many Dell Dimension 8200/8300 series desktops simply won't function
> with an X1650 Pro. You put it in, hook up the extra power lead, and
> presto....dead box. I picked up a proper 450W replacement power supply
> thinking this was the problem, and exact same thing. Pull the card out,
> stick it my wife's Barton 3200 box and works fine with a generic 350W.
> Hmmmm...Some digging on Dell forums found similar experiences. Odd, since
> the same system had been upgraded to the 9800 Pro from it's original
> Geforce2 card. But incurable, nevertheless. So those increased benchmarks
> I told you about were from my wife's Barton 3200 box which my son now has.
> I built her a new one.

"Craig Coope" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:05:07 -0000, "Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>I think I've done something really silly (
>>
>>I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the
>>9800XT
>>256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the 9800XT is
>>a
>>256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this is where the
>>9800 may beat it.
>>
>>Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?
>>
>>Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a
>>bit
>>fuller.
>>
>>I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
>>like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
>>Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which doesn't
>>incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Rob
>
> I just went from 9800XT to X1950 Pro 512meg and the increase in
> performance was massive...
>
> I'm able to play Bioshock and COD4 on high settings....
>

At what resolution? What CPU do you have? I cannot use high settings with
Bioshock & COD4 at 1680x1050 although I have a HD3870. The reason may be
that I have an underpowered CPU (E6400).

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 23:18:31 -0500, "KlausK" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Craig Coope" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:05:07 -0000, "Rob" <N@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>I think I've done something really silly (
>>>
>>>I've just ordered a Sapphire X1650 Pro 512mb AGP card to replace the
>>>9800XT
>>>256mb but I don't think it'll improve things much. I believe the 9800XT is
>>>a
>>>256bit card and the X1650 is only 128bit, I'm thinking this is where the
>>>9800 may beat it.
>>>
>>>Anyone done this upgrade? What do you think, any better?
>>>
>>>Eventually I'll go for the X1950 (XT or PRO?) when my piggy bank gets a
>>>bit
>>>fuller.
>>>
>>>I'm looking to replace my under powered dell OEM PSU (305W) to something
>>>like a 550 ~ 600w. Any recommendations (UK retailer)? I believe the
>>>Dimension 8300 can now take any ATX PSU. I'm looking for one which doesn't
>>>incorporate the on/off switch as don't fancy hacking the PC case.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>Rob
>>
>> I just went from 9800XT to X1950 Pro 512meg and the increase in
>> performance was massive...
>>
>> I'm able to play Bioshock and COD4 on high settings....
>>
>
>At what resolution? What CPU do you have? I cannot use high settings with
>Bioshock & COD4 at 1680x1050 although I have a HD3870. The reason may be
>that I have an underpowered CPU (E6400).
>

Yeah sorry...I really should have posted my specs...

A64 3400+ (single core job) 2 gig RAM
I run both games at 1680 x 1050. Admittedly when I get a lot of action
the framerate drops but it never gets to the point that is is sluggish
and unplayable. I have all settings on highest apart from AA and AF I
think...

--
The Zero ST

> A64 3400+ (single core job) 2 gig RAM
> I run both games at 1680 x 1050. Admittedly when I get a lot of action
> the framerate drops but it never gets to the point that is is sluggish
> and unplayable. I have all settings on highest apart from AA and AF I
> think...

The biggest favor you can do for Bioshock and other newer games is pick up a
socket 939 dual core Opteron or AMD X2 and o/c it to the 2.8Ghz level. I
went from an AMD 4000+ 1Mb San Diego running at 2.8Ghz to an Opteron 185
which I run at 2.9Ghz. The difference was vast.

Ok card arrived today. 5 mins to fit. A lot of dust on old card!

Vista drivers took an age to install. XP drivers a breeze. Windows
Experience Index (Vista) surprisingly took at hit. Graphics score went down
from 5.9 to 4.6! but Gaming score went up from 4.6 to 4.9. Aero still works
ok though.

Card is quiet and looks like PSU is handling it well, although I haven't
really put
it through it's paces. To be honest I'm not impressed. I don't see a
noticeable improvement and if anything I think the 9800XT performs better.

I'll be getting the X1950 Pro soon along with new PSU.

I would like to try the 7.5 Cats though, anyone know where I can get 'em?

Thanks for all the replies guys, helpful as ever!

Rob


--
Red meat isn't bad for you....Blue, Green fuzzy meat is bad for you.

Dell Dimension 8300 Desktop
P4 3.0GHz
1GB RAM
Windows Vista Ultimate 32Bit
ATI Radeon 9800 XT
Creative SB Audigy 2