Greetings all.

Just when I thought I'd seen it all, this happens to me (us)...

This is going to be a fairly lengthy story; but please stick with me because
I really need some help here.

Some time on Saturday my wife's PC started acting up. Random file errors,
the occasional blue screen, etc. She tried a system restore, stuff like that.
I was at work, so I couldn't look at it myself.

On Sunday things got worse. I advised her to start making backups; but then
she couldn't even see the "cut/copy/paste" menus anymore. She tried to
reinstall XP; but things went downhill from there. Sunday was another work
day for me; I couldn't really do anything until Monday.

On Monday I took her primary drive out of her PC, and hooked it up to my
system. I made a full backup of her drive; and consequently reformatted it.
We both use XP Pro SP2, so I wasn't expecting any problems.

OK. So this is where the weird stuff starts.

I put the HD back in her PC, and got ready for a fresh installation.
However, as soon as I plugged her AC cable back in, her PC started. Fans and
lights came on, drives started spinning, etc. without even pressing the
case's power button. Nothing showed up on her screen, except the message that
the monitor didn't have a signal. I could not shut down her PC by holding the
front power button.

After messing with this for a while I found out that the only way to shut
down the PC was to use the PSU's power button. And that is now the only way
to start it up to (note that it doesn't boot).

I made sure all hardware was hooked up properly. Even reset the BIOS, etc.
Nothing really helped.

Fortunately for my wife, she has a backup PC. An older AMD Duron 1.3 GHz
system. Not lightning fast, but she keeps it as a backup, and it worked fine
when she put it in the closet.

My first thought was to swap the power supplies. Don't ask me why. When I
did I noticed the same problem: the system can only be shut down with the
power supply's power button, not the case's power button. Weird...

So I hooked the power supply back up to the Duron's motherboard, put that in
place of the newer (Sempron) system, and fired it up. To my surprise the
Duron system no showed the same problem: it can only be started/shut down
with the power supply's power button! And again: no boot.

So at this point I'm sort of losing it. What the heck is going on...

I started suspecting an uninterruptable power supply that is hooked up to my
wife's gear, so I took that offline. The same happened, with both PCs. I
verified the AC plug's wiring and voltage, no problems.

Regardless, I hooked up both PCs to an AC outlet that I know is good (and
which my own PC is hooked up to) and the same kept happening.

However, after some experimenting, I managed to reinstall XP Pro on the old
Duron, using the "good" AC outlet. So now I have an "old" slow Duron system,
fresh install, that works OK, exept for the fact that it doesn't power up the
way it should, and doesn't power down the way it should: I have to use the
power supply's power button.

The old Duron is now "working"; that is to say I have it set up with a fresh
copy of XP Pro, so my dear wife can do her classes and homework online. When
I try to shut it down through XP, both the power and HD led go out after a
while, but the screen keeps displaying "Windows is shutting down". It never
really does though, until I flip the switch on the back.

I've been messing with this for two days now. I'm left with two, non-working
(not properly anyway) PCs. The UPS has been taken offline. I have one more PC
here, my own; but to be honest I'm a little hesitant to start swapping
hardware. It's the only one in the house still functioning properly...

I haven't had time today to look at the Sempron system; and I'm going to
wait with that until the old Duron gets fixed (if it can be fixed at all).

I told you this would be a lenghty story...

What do you think went wrong? And, how can I fix it?

All suggestions and ideas are welcome!

Thanks,

Erik

With pc power,if troubles are'nt easily figured out,repeating a turn on/off
w/o using the normal operation will certainly cause other failures
quickly....
If both pcs are faulting with same problem,a power surge or similiar may have
taken place,youre best bet,unhook all from pc tower,take to local independent
pc repair shop.Most will have it figured out while you wait,usually free....

"Erik" wrote:

> Greetings all.
>
> Just when I thought I'd seen it all, this happens to me (us)...
>
> This is going to be a fairly lengthy story; but please stick with me because
> I really need some help here.
>
> Some time on Saturday my wife's PC started acting up. Random file errors,
> the occasional blue screen, etc. She tried a system restore, stuff like that.
> I was at work, so I couldn't look at it myself.
>
> On Sunday things got worse. I advised her to start making backups; but then
> she couldn't even see the "cut/copy/paste" menus anymore. She tried to
> reinstall XP; but things went downhill from there. Sunday was another work
> day for me; I couldn't really do anything until Monday.
>
> On Monday I took her primary drive out of her PC, and hooked it up to my
> system. I made a full backup of her drive; and consequently reformatted it.
> We both use XP Pro SP2, so I wasn't expecting any problems.
>
> OK. So this is where the weird stuff starts.
>
> I put the HD back in her PC, and got ready for a fresh installation.
> However, as soon as I plugged her AC cable back in, her PC started. Fans and
> lights came on, drives started spinning, etc. without even pressing the
> case's power button. Nothing showed up on her screen, except the message that
> the monitor didn't have a signal. I could not shut down her PC by holding the
> front power button.
>
> After messing with this for a while I found out that the only way to shut
> down the PC was to use the PSU's power button. And that is now the only way
> to start it up to (note that it doesn't boot).
>
> I made sure all hardware was hooked up properly. Even reset the BIOS, etc.
> Nothing really helped.
>
> Fortunately for my wife, she has a backup PC. An older AMD Duron 1.3 GHz
> system. Not lightning fast, but she keeps it as a backup, and it worked fine
> when she put it in the closet.
>
> My first thought was to swap the power supplies. Don't ask me why. When I
> did I noticed the same problem: the system can only be shut down with the
> power supply's power button, not the case's power button. Weird...
>
> So I hooked the power supply back up to the Duron's motherboard, put that in
> place of the newer (Sempron) system, and fired it up. To my surprise the
> Duron system no showed the same problem: it can only be started/shut down
> with the power supply's power button! And again: no boot.
>
> So at this point I'm sort of losing it. What the heck is going on...
>
> I started suspecting an uninterruptable power supply that is hooked up to my
> wife's gear, so I took that offline. The same happened, with both PCs. I
> verified the AC plug's wiring and voltage, no problems.
>
> Regardless, I hooked up both PCs to an AC outlet that I know is good (and
> which my own PC is hooked up to) and the same kept happening.
>
> However, after some experimenting, I managed to reinstall XP Pro on the old
> Duron, using the "good" AC outlet. So now I have an "old" slow Duron system,
> fresh install, that works OK, exept for the fact that it doesn't power up the
> way it should, and doesn't power down the way it should: I have to use the
> power supply's power button.
>
> The old Duron is now "working"; that is to say I have it set up with a fresh
> copy of XP Pro, so my dear wife can do her classes and homework online. When
> I try to shut it down through XP, both the power and HD led go out after a
> while, but the screen keeps displaying "Windows is shutting down". It never
> really does though, until I flip the switch on the back.
>
> I've been messing with this for two days now. I'm left with two, non-working
> (not properly anyway) PCs. The UPS has been taken offline. I have one more PC
> here, my own; but to be honest I'm a little hesitant to start swapping
> hardware. It's the only one in the house still functioning properly...
>
> I haven't had time today to look at the Sempron system; and I'm going to
> wait with that until the old Duron gets fixed (if it can be fixed at all).
>
> I told you this would be a lenghty story...
>
> What do you think went wrong? And, how can I fix it?
>
> All suggestions and ideas are welcome!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Erik

Hi Andrew.

I agree, there may have been a power surge. Despite the surge suppressors -
including the one in the UPS... Wouldn't surprise me, in this black hole of
the country.

Taking it to the "local" store is not an option, I'm afraid. There's just no
such thing...

And so that takes me back to my original question: has anyone ever seen
something like this before, multiple PCs failing with the same symptoms? And,
what turned out to be defective?

Thanks,

Erik

"Andrew E." wrote:

> With pc power,if troubles are'nt easily figured out,repeating a turn on/off
> w/o using the normal operation will certainly cause other failures
> quickly....
> If both pcs are faulting with same problem,a power surge or similiar may have
> taken place,youre best bet,unhook all from pc tower,take to local independent
> pc repair shop.Most will have it figured out while you wait,usually free....

Hi Erik,

........what turned out to be defective?

I had a problem that had a couple of your symtoms, at least on this
computer. The biggest plug from the power supply to the motherboard was
not making a good connection on one of the pins. I scrapped it clean and
closed it down a little with a needle and things have been working well
since.

I was getting the no signal every now and then and the OS was freezing
every now and then if the signal was working. You might just try
cleaning everything cable wise and see what happens.

Good luck, it has a lot to do with it too.

---==X={}=X==---

Jim Self

AVIATION ANIMATION, the internet's largest depository.
http://avanimation.avsupport.com

Your only internet source for spiral staircase plans.
http://jself.com/stair/Stair.htm

Experimental Aircraft Association #140897
EAA Technical Counselor #4562

After all that work, now tell us; what is 'known good' and what is
'known bad'? Nothing? After all that work, nothing has been
accomplished? The problem has been made exponentially worse due to
shotgunning. Trying to fix Windows when hardware integrity is unknown
and when Windows is not yet on the suspect list will only create more
unknowns; therefore exponentially complicate things. Fixing Windows
also destroyed useful facts.

Step back. Start all over again because everything is in the third
category - unknown. Move each 'component' from the unknown category
to 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. The world is ternary.

Everything will look bad if a power supply is failing. Fans can
spin; lights illuminate; and still a power supply can be 100%
defective. A defective supply that works in one computer can appear
fail in another. No way around using a 3.5 digit multimeter as sold
in any 'guys' store from K-mart to Lowes for maybe $20. Perform a two
minute procedure described in "When your computer dies without
warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
at:
http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh

With numbers both before power switch is pressed and as power switch
is pressed, then a power supply 'system' is 'definitively good' or
'definitively bad'. Post those numbers here for further insights. It
is a supply 'system' - far more than just one 'system' component - a
power supply. Just another reason why shotgunning can so complicate a
problem.

Having established the state of that 'system', never look back.
Something has been accomplished. We know that something in that
computer is 100% functional or defective. Move on.

Long ago, important facts were being stored in the system (event)
log. Windows finds problems, records them, and works around them.
This information so that you can deal with problems when you are
ready. Well, useful facts were destroyed by 'fixing' Windows without
first learning what was wrong. So move on.

All responsible computer manufactures provide comprehensive hardware
diagnostic in one complete package. Software that tests hardware
without Windows complications. Strip the problem down into parts;
then analyze only those parts. Utilities examine well beyond what
Windows can see and report back with numbers. If your computer
manufacture was not so responsible, then download each diagnostic from
the appropriate hardware provider. If the computer manufacture did
not provide that one complete hardware diagnostic, then download one
from the disk drive manufacturer, from the video controller
manufacturer, sound card providers, some memory diagnostic (maybe from
a third party such as MemTst86), etc. Establish what is and is not
good long before disconnecting or replacing anything. Don't shotgun.
First identify the suspect.

At this point, something may appear defective. If still confused,
well the better informed can only reply if you provide facts.
Diagnostics and voltages are facts and numbers then empower the more
technical informed posters. By verifying all hardware and confirming
power supply voltages, now much has been accomplished. We know what
is good; so move on to other suspects. All hardware worked just fine
without Windows. Only now suspect Windows since it is the last
'unknown'. And still we don't repair anything yet. Instead identify
the suspect.

Only replace a 'definitively bad' item. A list of what is
'definitively good' means something has been accomplished. That's the
point. After all that shotgunning, nothing has been accomplished and
the problem has been made more complex.

You have no reason to believe a power surge existed or did damage.
If suppressors were adjacent to the computer, then a surge can even be
provided more destructive paths to earth via electronics. High
reliability facilities don't use plug-in suppressors for this and
other reasons. The effective suppressor is located far from
electronics and typically 'less than 10 feet' from earth ground.
Surges that can overwhelm protection already inside all electronics
occur typically once every seven years - a number that can vary
significantly. Others without that knowledge and numbers that
automatically assume only what they understand as the reason for
failure. Manufacturing defects are a far more common source of
failures such as yours.

Currently, we have near zero facts to answer why PCs are failing.
Too much shotgunning has exponentially complicated the problem -
severely clouded the water. Shotgunning can even cause damage to a
good computer - just another reason we avoid shotgunning. To obtain a
useful reply, your replies will only be as good as the information you
provide. That means 'definitive' answers, numbers, and working step
by step to establish subsystem and component integrity. Using
information provided, every answer would only be wild speculation -
"it could be this or could be that". Get numbers. Get
diagnostics. Know "this is good, that is bad, and those are still
unknown". It is a ternary world.

On Nov 15, 12:12 am, Erik <E...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> I agree, there may have been a power surge. Despite the surge suppressors -
> including the one in the UPS... Wouldn't surprise me, in this black hole of
> the country.
>
> Taking it to the "local" store is not an option, I'm afraid. There's just no
> such thing...
>
> And so that takes me back to my original question: has anyone ever seen
> something like this before, multiple PCs failing with the same symptoms? And,
> what turned out to be defective?

w_tom wrote:

>
> You have no reason to believe a power surge existed or did damage.
> If suppressors were adjacent to the computer, then a surge can even be
> provided more destructive paths to earth via electronics. High
> reliability facilities don't use plug-in suppressors for this and
> other reasons. The effective suppressor is located far from
> electronics and typically 'less than 10 feet' from earth ground.

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is in an IEEE guide at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
And one from the NIST at:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf

Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
the suppressor.

--
bud--

On Nov 16, 12:01 pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> Excellent information on surges and surge protection is in an IEEE guide at:http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
> And one from the NIST at:http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
>
> Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Bud promotes for plug-in protector manufacturers. He is not honest
enough to admit it. Bud's citation http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
even demonstrates what happens when a protector is adjacent to
electronics. Page 42 Figure 8 - the surge is earthed 8000 volts
destructively through the adjacent TV. If the computer was damaged by
a surge, well, look what happens when the protector is not earthed; is
instead too close to electronics - Page 42 Figure 8.

Bud hopes you don't read those pamphlets carefully. A protector not
at earth ground only protects from a type of surge that typically does
not damage computers. The pamphlets warn why a plug-in protector does
not provide protection - can only be effective with an earthing
connection. Worse, protector circuits may earth the typically
destructive type of surge 8000 volts destructively through the wife's
computer.

Bud's post is irrelevant to the OP's problem. Computer has what
appears to be a manufacturing defect. Bud is my troll - follows me
everywhere. Ignore the troll. He posts nothing that explains or
solves problems with the wife's computer. If Bud was honest or was
posting something relevant, then the wife has no computer problems.
Damage even though it had an adjacent plug-in protector circuit.
Could not happen according to Bud.

Provided are where to begin fixing that computer, including and not
limited to "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6
Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at:
http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh

Hi all.

My apologies for the late reply; I have the most "fantastic" work hours...
But today I had some time off.

I managed to test the drives of the first computer that failed, today; and
they all seem to work fine. I connected those to my own PC, one by one, did
some testing (with HD tune, to give them a good workout, and played a DVD in
the optical drive). No problems at all. (I just realized I forgot to test the
disk drive...)

Other hardware in the PC that failed first were an AGP card, and a wireless
network card. The wireless card was installed in the backup PC a few days
ago, and works great. The AGP card, unfortunately, I can't test. The backup
PC has no AGP slot, and my own PC has a PCIe slot...

I have not managed to do anything on the backup PC; my wife needed it for
her online classes today.

OK, I did the voltage test as described in your article, on the first PC.

I disconnected the ATX connector from the MB for the first part of the test;
because the CPU heatsink obscures part of it, and is hard to reach with the
probes.

The purple wire measures 5.20 V. After hooking up the ATX connector to the
MB the voltage goes down to about 5.10 V.

The green wire measures 4.66 V. (again, before being plugged into the MB).
After I plug it in to the MB, and turning on the PSU's switch, it goes to
0.78 V.

The gray wire measures 5.15 V. ("well above 2.4 V", as you say in your other
message, but maybe too high?)

I measured 3.43 V, 5.15 V and 12.10 V on the orange, red and yellow wires,
respectively.

I hope you can tell me a little more from these voltages. Please remember
that I couldn't perform the test exactly as you describe; because pressing
the power button on this PC doesn't do anything at all.

If it is significant: I noticed that the power supply's fan does not come on
when the ATX connector is not hooked up to the MB (even though the PSU is
switched on in the back).

Does this mean anything to you?

Thanks,

Erik

"w_tom" wrote:

> After all that work, now tell us; what is 'known good' and what is
> 'known bad'? Nothing? After all that work, nothing has been
> accomplished? The problem has been made exponentially worse due to
> shotgunning. Trying to fix Windows when hardware integrity is unknown
> and when Windows is not yet on the suspect list will only create more
> unknowns; therefore exponentially complicate things. Fixing Windows
> also destroyed useful facts.
>
> Step back. Start all over again because everything is in the third
> category - unknown. Move each 'component' from the unknown category
> to 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. The world is ternary.
>
> Everything will look bad if a power supply is failing. Fans can
> spin; lights illuminate; and still a power supply can be 100%
> defective. A defective supply that works in one computer can appear
> fail in another. No way around using a 3.5 digit multimeter as sold
> in any 'guys' store from K-mart to Lowes for maybe $20. Perform a two
> minute procedure described in "When your computer dies without
> warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
> at:
> http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
>
> With numbers both before power switch is pressed and as power switch
> is pressed, then a power supply 'system' is 'definitively good' or
> 'definitively bad'. Post those numbers here for further insights. It
> is a supply 'system' - far more than just one 'system' component - a
> power supply. Just another reason why shotgunning can so complicate a
> problem.
>
> Having established the state of that 'system', never look back.
> Something has been accomplished. We know that something in that
> computer is 100% functional or defective. Move on.
>
> Long ago, important facts were being stored in the system (event)
> log. Windows finds problems, records them, and works around them.
> This information so that you can deal with problems when you are
> ready. Well, useful facts were destroyed by 'fixing' Windows without
> first learning what was wrong. So move on.
>
> All responsible computer manufactures provide comprehensive hardware
> diagnostic in one complete package. Software that tests hardware
> without Windows complications. Strip the problem down into parts;
> then analyze only those parts. Utilities examine well beyond what
> Windows can see and report back with numbers. If your computer
> manufacture was not so responsible, then download each diagnostic from
> the appropriate hardware provider. If the computer manufacture did
> not provide that one complete hardware diagnostic, then download one
> from the disk drive manufacturer, from the video controller
> manufacturer, sound card providers, some memory diagnostic (maybe from
> a third party such as MemTst86), etc. Establish what is and is not
> good long before disconnecting or replacing anything. Don't shotgun.
> First identify the suspect.
>
> At this point, something may appear defective. If still confused,
> well the better informed can only reply if you provide facts.
> Diagnostics and voltages are facts and numbers then empower the more
> technical informed posters. By verifying all hardware and confirming
> power supply voltages, now much has been accomplished. We know what
> is good; so move on to other suspects. All hardware worked just fine
> without Windows. Only now suspect Windows since it is the last
> 'unknown'. And still we don't repair anything yet. Instead identify
> the suspect.
>
> Only replace a 'definitively bad' item. A list of what is
> 'definitively good' means something has been accomplished. That's the
> point. After all that shotgunning, nothing has been accomplished and
> the problem has been made more complex.
>
> You have no reason to believe a power surge existed or did damage.
> If suppressors were adjacent to the computer, then a surge can even be
> provided more destructive paths to earth via electronics. High
> reliability facilities don't use plug-in suppressors for this and
> other reasons. The effective suppressor is located far from
> electronics and typically 'less than 10 feet' from earth ground.
> Surges that can overwhelm protection already inside all electronics
> occur typically once every seven years - a number that can vary
> significantly. Others without that knowledge and numbers that
> automatically assume only what they understand as the reason for
> failure. Manufacturing defects are a far more common source of
> failures such as yours.
>
> Currently, we have near zero facts to answer why PCs are failing.
> Too much shotgunning has exponentially complicated the problem -
> severely clouded the water. Shotgunning can even cause damage to a
> good computer - just another reason we avoid shotgunning. To obtain a
> useful reply, your replies will only be as good as the information you
> provide. That means 'definitive' answers, numbers, and working step
> by step to establish subsystem and component integrity. Using
> information provided, every answer would only be wild speculation -
> "it could be this or could be that". Get numbers. Get
> diagnostics. Know "this is good, that is bad, and those are still
> unknown". It is a ternary world.
>
> On Nov 15, 12:12 am, Erik <E...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> > I agree, there may have been a power surge. Despite the surge suppressors -
> > including the one in the UPS... Wouldn't surprise me, in this black hole of
> > the country.
> >
> > Taking it to the "local" store is not an option, I'm afraid. There's just no
> > such thing...
> >
> > And so that takes me back to my original question: has anyone ever seen
> > something like this before, multiple PCs failing with the same symptoms? And,
> > what turned out to be defective?
>

I'm confused why you are disconnecting power supply from
motherboard - or disconnecting anything. Disconnecting means more
possible damage, consumes time, and makes numbers less useful.
Measure both before and as the power switch is pressed - regardless of
whether computer and fan appears to start.

Hopefully the AC power cord was disconnected from wall receptacle
before disconnecting anything. Otherwise more damage may have been
created. Another reason why repair starts by disconnecting or
removing anything.

Purple wire is OK - the only useful number being when supply was
connected to motherboard.

Green wire at 0.78 volts is too high - a defect. But apparenly the
power supply is turning on anyway as indicated by voltages on red,
orange, and yellow wires? (An example of how a defective power supply
may still power on a computer.)

Gray wire voltage is OK when power supply is on. However not
provided is the same number before power switch is pressed and what
happens as power switch is pressed. A delay should have been noticed
between power on and voltage rising about 2.4 volts. Moving on.

Important are what those numbers do and do not do when power switch
is pressed. Does not matter if computer does nothing when swtich is
pressed. Important was what each wire does before and as switch is
pressed. For example - purple wire was at 5.1 volts before switch was
pressed. What was it as switch was pressed?

If power supply does nothing when switch is pressed, then where did
the 3.43, 5.15, and 12.1 come from? Were these when the power supply
was connected to motherboard and only when and after power switch was
pressed? I am a little concerned with the 3.3 volt number - it is
border line high. Not excessive, but very close to exceeding
maximum. Would not cause a computer failure, but a useful fact that
may or may not be useful with other information. Currently only a
concern and not a problem.

Assuming these numbers were all when everything (including video
card and disk drive) were connected, then the power supply is good
except for the green wire. Power supply was telling computer to power
on. Except for green wire, the power supply system is OK.

That green wire problem could be either a motherboard defect or a
power supply defect. Another test later can determine which is
marginal (defective). This defect could cause a system to rarely
(intermittently) shutoff for no apparent reason.

Before moving on, first confirm for me the assumptions I made here
to claim the power supply as (mostly) good.

On Nov 16, 7:39 pm, Erik <E...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> My apologies for the late reply; I have the most "fantastic" work hours...
> But today I had some time off.
>
> I managed to test the drives of the first computer that failed, today; and
> they all seem to work fine. I connected those to my own PC, one by one, did
> some testing (with HD tune, to give them a good workout, and played a DVD in
> the optical drive). No problems at all. (I just realized I forgot to test the
> disk drive...)
>
> Other hardware in the PC that failed first were an AGP card, and a wireless
> network card. The wireless card was installed in the backup PC a few days
> ago, and works great. The AGP card, unfortunately, I can't test. The backup
> PC has no AGP slot, and my own PC has a PCIe slot...
>
> I have not managed to do anything on the backup PC; my wife needed it for
> her online classes today.
>
> OK, I did the voltage test as described in your article, on the first PC.
>
> I disconnected the ATX connector from the MB for the first part of the test;
> because the CPU heatsink obscures part of it, and is hard to reach with the
> probes.
>
> The purple wire measures 5.20 V. After hooking up the ATX connector to the
> MB the voltage goes down to about 5.10 V.
>
> The green wire measures 4.66 V. (again, before being plugged into the MB).
> After I plug it in to the MB, and turning on the PSU's switch, it goes to
> 0.78 V.
>
> The gray wire measures 5.15 V. ("well above 2.4 V", as you say in your other
> message, but maybe too high?)
>
> I measured 3.43 V, 5.15 V and 12.10 V on the orange, red and yellow wires,
> respectively.
>
> I hope you can tell me a little more from these voltages. Please remember
> that I couldn't perform the test exactly as you describe; because pressing
> the power button on this PC doesn't do anything at all.
>
> If it is significant: I noticed that the power supply's fan does not come on
> when the ATX connector is not hooked up to the MB (even though the PSU is
> switched on in the back).
>
> Does this mean anything to you?

w_tom wrote:
> On Nov 16, 12:01 pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
>> Excellent information on surges and surge protection is in an IEEE guide at:
>> http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
>> And one from the NIST at:
>. http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
>>
>> Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
>
> Bud promotes for plug-in protector manufacturers. He is not honest
> enough to admit it.

To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

w_ has never answered if he has/had connections to surge protection
equipment manufacturers?

> Bud's citation http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
> even demonstrates what happens when a protector is adjacent to
> electronics. Page 42 Figure 8 - the surge is earthed 8000 volts
> destructively through the adjacent TV. If the computer was damaged by
> a surge, well, look what happens when the protector is not earthed; is
> instead too close to electronics - Page 42 Figure 8.

The illustration in the IEEE guide has a surge coming in on a cable
service. There are 2 TVs, one is on a plug-in suppressor. The plug-in
suppressor protects TV1, connected to it.

Without the plug-in suppressor the surge voltage at TV2 is 10,000V. With
the suppressor at TV1 the voltage at TV2 is 8,000V. The plug-in
suppressor at TV1 does not in any way contribute to the damage at TV2.

The point of the illustration for the IEEE, and anyone who can think, is
"to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

w_ says suppressors must only be at the service panel. In this example a
service panel protector would provide absolutely *NO* protection. The
problem is the wire connecting the cable entry block to the power
service ‘ground’ is too long. The IEEE guide says in that case "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport protector."

>
> Bud hopes you don't read those pamphlets carefully.

If you are interested in surge protection I do hope you will read the
guides carefully - excellent information from reliable sources.

And both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

--
bud--